Inspiratie
Below is a list of everything we discuss in the podcast.
Click on the links for more information.
Connect with The Live Coaches
The Live Coaches: Instagram - Website
Melanie Esther: Instagram - Website
Vincent de Raad: Instagram - Website
Connect with Femke Vandenberg
Website: https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=y88j4Y0AAAAJ&hl=en
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/femke-vandenberg/
Cultural Sociology (field of study)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociology_of_culture
Paddy’s Enschede (bar)
Erasmus University (educational institute)
https://www.eur.nl/en/about-eur
Collective Effervescence (concept)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_effervescence
Émile Durkheim (sociologist)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89mile_Durkheim
Interaction Ritual (concept)
Small Scale Interaction Ritual (concept)
Large Scale Interaction Ritual (concept)
Randall Collins (sociologist)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randall_Collins
Interaction Ritual Chains (book by Randall Collins)
Rhythmic entrainment (concept)
https://academic.oup.com/book/34989/chapter-abstract/298668865?redirectedFrom=fulltext
Barbie (movie)
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1517268/
Taylor Swift (artist)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_Swift
Genre Conventions (concept)
Alt-J (artist)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alt-J
Breezeblocks (song by Alt-J)
https://open.spotify.com/track/1ZLroqJA8qoS5QEeCo0fA7?si=70dd455045a440a8
Goldband (artist)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldband
Lowlands (festival)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lowlands_(festival)
Goldband at Lowlands 2022 (concert)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aB4OzAEgfD0
Noodgeval (song by Goldband)
https://open.spotify.com/track/2LcmbuYX7tyR4DWy3b273L?si=8de771f6bbea441a
Adele (artist)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adele
Ziggo Dome (venue)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziggo_Dome
Trijntje Oosterhuis (artist)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trijntje_Oosterhuis
Social morphology (concept)
https://sk.sagepub.com/books/key-concepts-in-classical-social-theory/n37.xml
Eurosonic Noorderslag (showcase festival)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurosonic_Noorderslag
Tramhaus (artist)
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tramhaus
Eurovision Song Contest (event)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurovision_Song_Contest
Joost Klein (artist)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joost_Klein
AFAS Live (venue)
TLC S3 - 8 - Why We Gather – TRANSCRIPT
Femke: [00:00] The whole pub, the whole kroeg, would go singing along.
Melanie Esther: [00:05] Standing on the tables
Femke: [00:06] Standing on the tables, arm in arm. And I thought that was super fascinating. Because I was like: what is going on? We don't really have the equivalent of this in Ireland. So, then what basically, that was my inspiration. So, I was kind of like, what is this music and what is it that is generating this type of interaction? Live music has huge potential to create a bond between the people who are participating in it. And that's kind of what I was seeing there and what I really wanted to understand. Exactly what are the mechanisms that make this work?
Tune: [00:40]
Hey!
I’m Vincent de Raad and I’m Melanie Esther and we are ‘The Live Coaches.’
We help artists translate their unique story into a live experience.
On our podcast we talk with experts from both in and outside the live music industry. We share valuable knowledge, new insights, and tips to that you can apply to turn your performance into an experience.
Follow us on Instagram @thelivecoaches for photos and videos of all the examples we discuss. And visit thelivecoaches.nl for show notes, transcripts and more information about our coaching and workshops.
Ready? Let’s go!
Vincent: [01:38] Hey, and welcome to The Live Coaches, the podcast for artists who want to turn their performance into a live experience. This is the eighth episode of our third season: ‘From Idea to Memory.’
Melanie Esther: [01:50] Throughout this season, we’re exploring each step in the process of creating, performing, and experiencing a show, from the initial idea to the memory that remains with the audience.
Vincent: [02:01] Over the course of 10 episodes, we and our guests explore questions like: How do you develop a unique vision for your show? What factors shape your choices? How can you build and maintain confidence in yourself and your ideas? What impact does your show leave on your audience? And how can you use all of these insights to turn your performances into memorable experiences?
As you might have noticed, usually our podcast is in Dutch, but since today’s guest is an English speaker, we decided to make this episode completely in English, so everyone can follow along.
Melanie Esther: [02:35] This episode we explore why we gather. Why do so many people like to go to concerts? And how can insight in your audience’s motivations to come to your show, help you to transform your performance into a memorable experience?
Vincent: [02:51] To explore these questions we invited cultural sociologist and audience researcher Femke Vandenberg. Femke currently works as an assistant professor of audience research at the University of Groningen. Before that, she did her PHD research into the collective potential of live music. For this research she spent years visiting concerts and talking to audiences to find out why they went to concerts, what they like about them and what they get out of them.
In this episode we discuss what she found. You’ll hear why some music genres are better at bringing people together than others, why audience interaction is so important, why it’s harder for smaller artists to get a crowd to the same energy levels as bigger artists, and how to overcome the obstacles that are in the way and reach your maximum live potential.
Melanie Esther: [03:40] Enjoy this insightful and fun conversation about why we gather with Femke Vandenberg.
Vincent: [03:50] Femke van den Berg. Welcome to The Live Coaches.
Melanie Esther: [03:52] Welcome.
Femke: [03:53] Thank you for having me.
Vincent: [03:55] It's nice to have you. It's actually been one and a half years since I stumbled upon one of your presentations about your work, and I immediately knew I had to have you on the podcast at some point. So, it's great that this is actually happening. To start off with, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, who you are and what you do?
Femke: [04:13] Sure. So, I am a sociologist. I'm an assistant professor at the moment in the Groningen University, and I mainly focus on the consumption of art and culture, and particularly on music. So, I look at audiences and how they experience live music concerts. And I look at different genres. So, what type of audiences go to different types of music concerts and why? What are their motivations? And I also look at the types of interactions that kind of take place there. And again, how that might differ depending on the concert and depending on the audience that goes there. So that's kind of my main thing that I focus on. But broadly speaking, I'm an assistant professor in audience research. So, I look at also other audiences and other cultural fields as well. But my love and my passion and what I mostly write about is music.
Vincent: [05:07] Nice. And if we break that down a little bit, what does a sociologist do? Like, in the broad sense, what do they research? What do they focus on? What are they interested in?
Femke: [05:15] That's a very good question. Sociologists mainly look at, like I'm a cultural sociologist to be like more specifically, so I look at the impact of society on art and culture. So, let's say how society shapes the types of art and culture that we see. So why maybe a cultural product looks the way it does, a cultural object or a music piece, and then also how it works the other way around. So how art shapes society as well. So how we can also change our behaviors or how we can get something from an art object. So that could be well-being, that could be identity, that could be community. So, these are all kind of, I think things that we do as cultural sociologists.
Melanie Esther: [06:01] Yeah. Cool.
Vincent: [06:02] Nice. Maybe just start with just, how did you come to - because how I see you, you research the concert experience almost. I don't know if you would say it that way. How did you come to researching that topic? How did that start? Where did that come from?
Femke: [06:16] Oh, I can bring you way back if you want.
Vincent: [06:19] You told an interesting story of the cafe in Enschede. Can you tell that story?
Femke: [06:23] I can totally tell that story. Yeah. So, my background is, interestingly enough, in visual arts. So that was what I did my bachelor's in. And I moved over to the Netherlands because I, also maybe a little bit more of history about me, I have a very Dutch name, Femke Vandenberg, but I was born and raised in Ireland to Dutch parents. So, they're Dutch and they moved to Ireland in the 80s. So, ik kan ook een beetje Netherlands praten maar Engels is makkelijker. So, I moved to Holland, I want to say, nearly like ten years ago now to do a pre-masters and a masters in Erasmus University. In Arts and Culture studies. And before that summer, before we started in September, I was living with some family members in Enschede.
I was living there because I could basically stay with my aunt and my cousin and have free accommodation, save some money for starting to study. And I started working in a bar called 'Paddy's.' It's the Irish bar in Enschede, if anybody knows it. And it was a really interesting experience because my knowledge of Dutch culture was quite minimal then. And also, my knowledge of the Dutch language was minimal. So, it was a learning experience, doing all these things. But what I really noticed from the onset was the change in culture from Ireland to Holland, and particularly the nightlife. And if certain songs came on in the bar, which I now know is like Nederlandstalig kind of levenslied or, Carnaval soort van muziek. Kind of the classics. Andre Hazes. The whole pub, the whole kroeg, would go singing along.
Melanie Esther: [07:57] Standing on the tables.
Femke: [07:57] Standing on the tables, arm in arm. And I thought that was super fascinating. Because I was like: what is going on? We don't really have the equivalent of this in Ireland. And I was really unfamiliar with the music as well. I was going like, what? How do they all know this song? So, then that was my inspiration. So, I was kind of like, what is this music and what is it that is generating this type of interaction? I mentioned earlier that I'm really interested in interactions. What, this is a very specific interaction that's happening between the people in this bar. What is it about this music that is making people behave like this? So that was basically the foundation of my PhD research, which I started then a few years later. Was really trying to understand what it is about this music genre that has this effect.
Vincent: [08:49] Nice. And in an Irish bar as well? That's so interesting to me.
Melanie Esther: [08:51] Yeah. Yeah.
Femke: [08:52] I was the only Irish in the village. The only Irish in the bar.
Melanie Esther: [08:57] Yeah. And then after this experience, you wanted to do more research on why did that happen? That situation, etcetera.
Femke: [09:04] Exactly. Yeah.
Melanie Esther: [09:05] Oh cool.
Femke: [09:06] Yeah.
Vincent: [09:07] So that is basically what we're going to talk about in this conversation.
Melanie Esther: [09:11] Yeah. What happened there?
Vincent: [09:11] Because now. We're years ahead. You finished that PhD by now. That was about that collective potential of live music, I think you phrased it?
Femke: [09:19] Yeah.
Vincent: [09:20] Can you tell us, what is the collective potential of live music?
Femke: [09:25] I think the collective potential of live music is, yeah, very powerful actually. Like so basically, live music has huge potential to create a bond between the people who are participating in it. And that's kind of what I was seeing there and what I really wanted to understand. Exactly what are the mechanisms that make this work? Because we love to think that music bonds. Right? There's so many quotes, there’s so many songs about how music brings people together, right? 'Music brings people together' or Beatles 'Come Together' or. Yeah, like there's so many quotes basically that are expressing this.
But I was wanting to know, like, okay, well, why is that? And how does that actually work? And is it working maybe more on an individual level? So, forming, let's say, subcultures? Because that's another way how music brings people together. Right? So, you can be a member of a local music community, or you go to your bar every Friday night because you know that a certain type of music is on there. But there's also something that's happening in the literal music that also bonds people, which is a kind of a different kind of mechanism. So that's kind of what I was interested in researching from a sociological perspective.
Vincent: [10:40] This episode is called 'Why We Gather' and where would you start to unpack this question? Where did you start to figure out how this worked? What was your starting off point? Where do you begin?
Femke: [10:52] Where do you begin? Yeah. So, I kind of began, at thinking about it from a theory. So, we might get a little bit theoretical now here from a sociological theory, but…
Vincent: [11:03] That's all right. We're ready.
Femke: [11:04] Yeah. Ask away if something's unclear. But there is a theory basically used, and this is from one of the founding fathers of sociology, right? So, this is really old. This is like, he was writing about this in the beginning of the 1900s, end of the 1800s, and it's called 'collective effervescence.' And basically, this is a concept that was coined by Emile Durkheim, one of the first sociologists, basically. And at the time, sociology wasn't really a thing, so you can even kind of call him a ‘philosopher-sociologist.’
But he was studying Aboriginal tribes in Australia. And he saw something kind of take place at certain times of the year, which resulted in a certain type of energy that was kind of driving among the Aboriginal tribes people, basically. And that energy that was derived among these tribespeople he called 'collective effervescence'. So, it was to do with, let's say, what we can also call religion, a religious ceremony. He called them 'rites', because it was when, it was sacred moments, basically, when tribespeople came together in large groups of people and would kind of enter into a trance, a state where anything was basically possible.
And this would happen around kind of collective symbols, basically. So, you can imagine this is like, if we could see this happening in a church today, you can imagine it kind of happening around a gospel song. So, you'd have a gospel singer. Your thing that would be connecting you would be that you were all there to celebrate this religion. And the music is really what actually kind of binds you.
And Durkheim didn't necessarily talk about music. He talked about more the power of them being collectively there together around this symbol, and then the outcome of it being this heightened emotional energy which he called collective effervescence.
So, this is a theory that I would know from studying sociology, let's say. And I was kind of looking at these concerts going, well, that's kind of what's happening. That's what's happening in these concerts. There is a state of collective effervescence. So, like, I think in Dutch, I've translated this before to 'bruisendheid'. Like, a 'bruisendheid', 'bruisendness', kind of common among the people who are participating in this certain encounter.
And we can call it then, an 'interaction ritual'. So, there's a ritual that is taking place among people, and we can talk about it in larger situations or to a larger kind of definition, broader definition than only religious ceremonies. We can talk about it also for other occasions in our daily lives.
Vincent: [13:46] So, a concert in sociology, it's a ritual? You would call it a ritual?
Femke: [13:51] Yeah, this is at least how I define it. I define it as a large-scale interaction ritual.
Melanie Esther: [13:58] Yeah.
Vincent: [13:59] And what makes something, what makes it a ritual? Or how do you recognize that it's a ritual? How does that work?
Femke: [14:04] Yeah. So, this is, again, I'm going to give you some names, but…
Melanie Esther: [14:09] Drop them!
Femke: [14:10] So Randall Collins is basically this post-durkheimian scholar, who is also writing now, so he's still alive now. But his most famous work was written in 2004, if you're interested, it's called 'Interaction Ritual Chains'. Again, it's not about music, it's about interaction. Right? So, he basically defines in this book that this concept of collective effervescence that Durkheim came up with, is something that we can get in our everyday lives. So, he's going beyond this idea that it's this ritualistic,
Vincent: [14:40] Sacred thing yeah.
Femke: [14:40] Sacred thing and saying that we can always experience it. And basically, we can find it in any kind of positive encounter. So, he says you can have it in small scale interaction, or you can have it in large scale interaction. And small-scale interaction is basically like what we're doing right now. So, we're having a conversation between two or three people. And you're nodding and you're kind of answering my, well, I'm answering your questions, but we're having a kind of conversation and there's a flow happening.
So, this is what you're also going to see in your daily lives as well. You're going to encounter all these people along the way, and you're going to be left with, after these interactions, either a positive or a negative kind of emotion. Right? So, you've experienced this maybe yourselves as well. You've maybe been talking to one of your really closest friends, and you have a lot in common, and you're talking about the same movies, you're talking about the same article that you read in the NRC yesterday. And then there is a flow emerging in that conversation, what he calls 'rhythmic entrainment'. You become ‘entrained’ in one another's flow of conversation. And this leaves you with a positive emotion afterwards. Because you've also kind of - you can imagine, you've assured yourself that that was a, that was a good encounter, right?
Melanie Esther: [15:55] You felt energized afterwards.
Femke: [15:58] Exactly. Yeah.
Vincent: [15:58] Rhythmic entrainment, it sounds like when you can finish each other's sentences and stuff. And be like, “oh yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.” You recognize a lot. That feeling?
Femke: [16:05] Exactly. Yeah, that's it. So, you can nearly kind of predict that the other one is going to react in a certain way and your prediction is actually correct. So, it's very much, so, for example, I'm like, “oh, I saw the Barbie movie” and you're like, “oh, I love the Barbie movie!”
Melanie Esther: [16:19] Yeah, yeah.
Femke: [16:19] “Ahh, my favorite part was that part with…” uh, what was the crazy Barbie called? But you know what, “yeah, me too!” And like, there's something in that, that reassurance that you're kind of both on the same wavelength. So, turn taking, so you're finishing each other's sentences. But also there’s flow. Right? So, you're being heard but you're, you're taking turns very like equally.
And if those kind of, we can call them 'ingredients' in the conversation don't happen, then you're going to be left with not having that kind of positive energy afterwards or feeling a little bit drained. And we've all experienced this, right? You know those people that you want to avoid. That you know that you're: oh, that encounter is going to make me feel in a certain kind of way. So, you’re kind of dreading it already.
So, this is also why he calls them 'chains'. Because a positive encounter is going to want you to have that positive encounter again. So, you're going to want to meet up with that friend, who you had that conversation with Barbie with. So, it's a chain, right? But if it's not positive, then you're going to be kind of, yeah, less interested in wanting to have that again and the chain can actually be broken. This seems maybe a little bit irrelevant to talking about music, but this is, I think, important framework for understanding Randall Collins's initial ideas on interaction.
Vincent: [17:45] So that's interaction rituals. And if we now connect that back to what makes a concert, actually what makes it a ritual, can you link that those two together?
Melanie Esther: [17:54] How does this work in music and live of course?
Femke: [17:57] Yeah. So, this is his main way of thinking. These chains. You want to experience these positive encounters and you're really kind of less likely to go after the encounters that you've experienced as negative in the past. And it works very similarly for large scale interaction rituals. Right? So small scale is when you're a few people in a conversation. But after a while, that group gets too large. Right? So, when you can no longer give active attention to all the people in the group, suddenly the group gets too big, the dynamic gets too big. So, you can no longer have this interpersonal kind of connection and this kind of nodding and turn taking. Right? So once the group gets too big, then we get something that's called a large-scale interaction ritual.
And there's been a lot less research actually done into what really happens there. So that's what I was also really interested in, in understanding it, because I see concerts as a really good example of a large-scale interaction ritual. Because basically there's a number of ingredients, again, going off what this guy Randall Collins said. There's a number of ingredients or aspects that you need for this positive emotion to occur. So, the positive emotion being collective effervescence.
Vincent: [19:04] Collective effervescence.
Femke: [19:04] Collective effervescence, yeah.
Vincent: [19:07] We're gonna hear this word a lot. Collective effervescence.
Femke: [20:58] Collective effervescence. Yeah. That's the outcome. Right? That's when you know: this was a successful interaction. And I believe that concerts are the perfect example of a large-scale interaction that results in this really powerful emotion, this collective effervescence. So, the ingredients that you need are basically, you need to be in the same physical space. So, we need to be here like physically together. That's the first thing.
Second thing you need is what he calls boundary work. And this is an interesting one, because when we think of music concerts, we think of them as fairly egalitarian open spaces where everybody's kind of allowed.
Melanie Esther: [19:46] Yeah. Like everyone can buy a ticket in that sense.
Femke: [19:48] Everyone can buy a ticket. Everybody should feel free to come in, right? So how could we have boundary work kind of happening in these kind of spaces? But it happens in what we can call symbolic or physical forms. So, a symbolic form can be that you're all wearing the same colors or clothes, or you have the same style. And you can see that so evidently in concerts, right? You can see that concerts really attract a similar type of person, a similar type of audience member. And, you know you're in the right place and you know the people around you are in the right place from basically what they're wearing.
So, I think, I went to like, I think a good example is, let's say, the rave scene. And I know, like from also being in the scene myself, that we love to think of these spaces as egalitarian open spaces where everybody is invited. Right? But there's definitely a certain type of person that's not allowed. I was at a rave, like, let's say two years ago. And then a group of guys came in and they were all wearing suits. And like just young guys wearing suits. And you're kind of going, like: you're ruining my vibe! Like, you're bringing the atmosphere down. And so, it's clear, this is kind of boundary work that's happening between the people who are participating from those who normally aren't.
Vincent: [21:11] There's clothing. Are there any other boundaries that are set up?
Femke: [21:13] Yeah. So that's a symbolic boundary, what we call it. Right? So, it's not an actual boundary. There's not something that's really kind of separating you from the interaction. Let's say. So symbolic could be what you're wearing. It could be that you have certain tattoos. But then there's also physical boundaries, which could be ticket prices. So, for example, we know now that ticket prices are really on the rise. And that's something that could be really strong.
Melanie Esther: [21:42] But boundaries then - this is a boundary in the sense of that some people maybe cannot afford this ticket for the concerts? Okay, yeah.
Femke: [21:51] Yeah, exactly. So, some people can't afford it. And there might not be enough space. Right? So, there's also a bit of an elitist kind of element to it there. Which again, can strengthen… So, what I'm trying to get at is these ingredients, these things. So, being in a physical space together, right? That's one. Second is these kind of boundaries. It shows that you are participating in this interaction. Right? Because we're trying to now think about how we can show that we are interacting together in this space. Right?
Because that's what this is really all about. So, one is being there physically together so you can see one another. The second is that there is something marking the insiders from the outsiders. So, whether this is the clothes that you're wearing, whether it is this kind of nearly a more elitist kind of sentiment that I could afford this opera ticket. Right?
Melanie Esther: [22:37] Hmm yeah. If we are all in the golden circle together, then we all know: like, oh, yeah...
Vincent: [22:43] We're the super fans.
Femke: [22:44] The super fans.
Melanie Esther: [22:45] Yeah.
Vincent: [22:46] So we're a seperate group again. Yeah.
Femke: [22:46] Exactly. So that again really shows and can really enhance this feeling. This collective feeling. This 'we-feeling'. And then there's literally the physical walls or physical fences. So that's literally marking the people who are going to a concert here in Tivoli, we're here in Tivoli today recording this, from the people who aren't at this concert. Right? There's very clear marcaters from okay, we are actually in this space physically together and my parents aren't going to walk in in two seconds and disrupt this, you know, this feeling that we have.
Because that's really important. That the people in this space are also similar and getting on already onto the next ingredient that is needed: feeling the same way. So, this is like the third ingredient that we already need, is that people there are kind of sharing a similar emotion already, or through the interaction they generate a similar emotion. So, with concerts again, why they work so well for these large-scale interaction rituals is that people are already excited to see their favorite artists before they even go to the show. So, they're already on the same wavelength. They're already feeling the same kind of emotion.
Melanie Esther: [24:00] We're going to see this artist in a few hours.
Femke: [24:02] Yeah.
Vincent: [24:03] "Oh my god."
Melanie Esther: [24:04] Yeah.
Femke: [24:04] They've been hyping themselves up. Watching TikToks of Taylor Swift. And they know that, okay, after this song, this song comes.
Melanie Esther: [24:11] We're going to scream this. Yeah.
Femke: [24:12] Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So that's then the third one.
Vincent: [24:18] So those are the three. That's what you need to create a feeling of collective effervescence.
Femke: [24:23] Yeah.
Vincent: [24:24] Which is the 'bruisbal', everyone goes crazy, they're singing along. They're jumping up and down.
Femke: [24:30] Yeah. So, to go back, if that's everything, it's almost everything. So, you have, be in the same physical space, be aware that you're all interacting in the same interaction through really clear marcating boundaries from who is basically an insider and who is an outsider. So, this could be really showing clothes, but it can also be physical boundaries like the walls of the venue. And then you have this sharing emotion. And then there's also, which is really important, sharing a focus. So, you're all focused on the same activity.
And this is really, these two final points, this sharing of emotion and sharing of focus. A focus could really be that you're all focused on the same artist, right? That the artist is there, that you're there to see. These two points are really important because that separates a lot of people basically walking down the street or even, yeah, let's say like a busy shop street from a concert. Because if you're just sharing the same physical space and if you are on a shop street, you might all look very similar.
You might all be shopping in H&M and Zara, and you might all have your H&M Zara bags and you're sharing the same physical space. But because you're not sharing the same focus and emotion, you're not connecting, right? So, what you have with music that is so important and what really kind of, let's say, rounds up these ingredients, is that you're sharing this focus on the artist. You're all there for the same reason, and you're all sharing an already - a similar emotional energy. You're sharing a similar emotional state. And those two final points, that's what we call rhythmic entrainment.
So, I mentioned earlier that in small scale conversations, so interpersonal conversation, that happens through turn taking. So, taking turns, finishing each other's sentences. That's how you become aware that you're on the same wavelength. In concerts this happens through this shared emotion and shared focus. You become aware that the people around you are on the same wavelength as you, right? You're shouting the same shouts, you're wearing the same clothes. And I think that's why concerts are so good at generating this energy.
Vincent: [26:45] And that becoming aware. Yeah. So, as you're saying, that's through singing along, through clapping to the beat. It's those kinds of things. You see, everyone around you is doing the same. You're all focused on this artist to sort of, the ritual leader as it were. The catalyzer for these other ingredients to come together and eventually make the bruis happen.
Femke: [27:03] Yes. Make the bruis happen.
Melanie Esther: [27:04] Nice slogan. Make de bruis happen.
Vincent: [27:09] So yeah. And that's then also the importance of audience interaction. Is, you need that to enable, unlock this effervescent, this collective effervescent feeling to occur.
Femke: [27:23] Exactly. Yeah. And that's actually why some music genres are better at this than others.
Melanie Esther: [27:28] Which ones are better then?
Femke: [27:29] Yeah. Because I think what you're saying totally hits the nail on the head as you say in Ireland. Because participation then is key, right? Because it is in these moments where we are collectively interacting that this emotion is the highest. So, as you said, artist works as basically ritual leader. And basically, through putting their hands in the air or saying, "everybody put their hand in the air" or "everybody sing along", or, you know, when the artist puts the mic to the audience and says, like, "now you sing", it's those moments that everybody's collectively participating, that this emotional energy is the highest. Because you're all aware of that people around you are doing the exact same thing. And you're aware of that shared focus and shared emotion. You're seeing that everybody is like extra excited. So yeah. So, to answer your question, which genres work really well for this? Well, one of them is levenslied or Nederlandstalige muziek. And that's what you really see happening in a lot of bruine kroegen or bars.
Melanie Esther: [28:32] In Paddy's in Enschede.
Femke: [28:32] In Paddy's in Enschede. Yeah. Is people singing along and participating. But also then, like, you can imagine, a lot of pop concerts as well, where the artists really is trying to encourage audience participation.
Melanie Esther: [28:43] I think it's interesting, because of course, it's the artist that's like the ritual leader, of course. But when I think of like Harry styles concerts, there's like, I saw so many videos on TikTok that in the back of the music hall there's people holding each other's hands, dancing in circles. But that's not something that Harry styles asks from them, but a ritual or like a symbol that was created in the audiences and online as well. Right? So, then it's not the artist, but then it's like the audience creating this together.
Femke: [29:17] Yeah for sure. Yeah, I think that's super interesting about fan communities as well. Fan communities really have a lot of agency actually. Also, in these things. And specifically now with the online sphere and the online world, I think it's becoming, audiences are getting more agency. Like and sometimes even determining what the artist sings. Or even writing on Twitter, "play this song." But also, as you said, like making their own communities, making their own dances. You know? I think all those things are really interesting to think about.
Melanie Esther: [29:46] Yeah. And also like the shouting, like, you know? When Harry Styles says, "Leave America" and then this, you know, and then the fans say, "leave America!", like so loud. Those are also things that just happen.
Vincent: [29:58] Yeah, that's interesting because, for example, K-pop actually encourages these things. So, there's, the artists actually tell the audience to sing certain bits and not sing other bits. And then you actually as an audience, as an insider, then one of the boundaries is you have to learn these rules. And at the concert, if you don't know when to sing and when not to sing, you don't belong.
Femke: [30:19] Exactly. Yeah.
Vincent: [30:21] Okay. This collective effervescent feeling, why do we like that so much? As humans? Why do we all crave that?
Femke: [30:28] Yeah. because it's actually something that's quite... Well, it's something that drives interaction. Right? What I was mentioning with Collins. It's something that we search for. This makes us feel good. It gives us, you could say nearly, almost newfound confidence. So, it works with small scale interaction. It works that you feel good afterwards and you want to have maybe that conversation kind of again. You go home and you feel content.
But with concerts, because it's this large-scale interaction, it's even enhanced. Like the more people that are interacting, the larger the interaction ritual, the more intense that outcome of collective effervescence is going to be, and the more intense that feeling afterwards is going to be. So, in those moments, so that's what we call a 'collective effervescent moment', you're also more likely to actually go out of your comfort zone and do things that you normally actually wouldn't do. Like dance on a table, like put your arm…
Melanie Esther: [31:21] Taking off your shirt, you know, like...
Femke: [31:23] Exactly.
Melanie Esther: [31:23] Yeah.
Femke: [31:24] Festivals are such a good example of that. Like, when else do you wear a banana suit walking around a festival terrain or wear the skimpiest glitteriest bikini, then when you're actually at a festival? Because you feel this confidence that you actually normally don't feel. And that is something that you also carry with you.
Vincent: [31:44] So it stays with you.
Femke: [31:46] It stays with you. Yeah. Yeah. It can. And can, but it does need to be recharged. Which is also interesting. Yeah. So, it does fade. You can take it with you, but after a while it does start to fade. And we call this literally 'recharging' of this emotional energy. So then, maybe it's time to go to a concert or a festival again? To get that recharge of that energy that you got there.
Vincent: [32:09] Wow. And that might be why people look forward so much to these festival summers again. They're like looking forward to going there.
Melanie Esther: [32:15] To feeling the collective effervescence again.
Femke: [32:18] Yeah, exactly.
Vincent: [32:18] Wow. So that's a recharge, literally. Wow. That's amazing.
Femke: [32:21] A recharging of it. Yeah. Yeah. So, the energy that you get there from experiencing this is important. But the other outcome that's super important from this experience, is that you feel 'one' or you feel solidarity with the people around you. Right? This kind of 'we-feeling' this collective feeling. That's also, I think, super important. And again, why concerts are so great at this kind of bonding, is that a huge or a hugely important outcome is also feeling solidarity with the people around you and feeling like you belong.
And it's through those mechanisms, like through sharing the same clothes, clothing style, or knowing the rules. Like you also mentioned, we call them 'genre conventions'. So, you mentioned that you need to know when to clap. You need to know when you're allowed to sing along and when to not. And these are things that will really make you feel like you belong to this group. And that's also something that we really as individuals and as members living within a society, really need.
Melanie Esther: [33:19] But how does this work if you have an annoying neighbor standing next to you? Like you can feel so connected, but if someone's annoying you because of any reason, then how does this… Because I can, I understand that it's on a large scale, like the effervescence, but it's also individual. Like, do I feel deze bruis now? You know? So how, do you also know something to say about like how that works on like a personal scale?
Femke: [33:46] For sure. Yeah. If you don't get this mutual focus and mutual emotion from the people around you, you won't have that feeling.
Melanie Esther: [33:53] Yeah, you won't feel recharged.
Femke: [33:54] You won't feel recharged. And I think everybody can probably think back to concerts that they really loved and concerts that they didn't like as much. Think back to the people who were around you and why that maybe was. And if you don't share this similar emotional energy, if you're not on the wavelength of the people around you, basically, then you won't get this collective emotion. You won't feel solidarity.
So, an example that I had of a concert that really made me feel like this, was actually I went to see Alt-J in Ziggo Dome. And what I really saw there was that everybody was there for a different reason. I think they're quite a big band. I know them already from like the early days. You know, I was a pretty big fan of theirs and I was just really looking forward to hearing their songs and I was hoping that people there would also have a similar like mentality to me. That we could all dance and kind of sing along to these songs that I really enjoy.
But what I really noticed there was that there was people who were there just to be seen, or there was people there just to take Instagram photos, or there was people there who maybe only knew 'Breezeblocks', like, only knew that one song. And then we didn't, I thought anyways, that was my individual experience, we didn't reach that collective feeling. And it really put a dampener on my whole Alt-J experience.
Vincent: [35:11] I can also really imagine now, like, when I go to especially bigger concerts, but any concert maybe, that there's some hotbeds of collective effervescence. Like, in the front it's more than in the back or on the balcony. Like sometimes you're on the balcony, for example in AFAS Live, and it has a big balcony in the back. And you look down on the crowd and sometimes you look at the collective effervescence, but actually on the balcony, you're not in the collective effervescence. You're almost outside of it looking at it.
And so this can also happen? That there's like a, I can almost see it like a heat camera or something. Like there's, it's slightly colder to the sides. And sometimes, you gave an example of like Goldband at Lowlands last year, I believe? That was a really good example of really collective effervescence throughout almost the whole crowd. Like the crowd, there's some videos of this as well.
Melanie Esther: [36:03] Yeah. We'll share them on our Instagram.
Vincent: [36:03] Where the crowd is far outside of this Alpha tent, the biggest tent on Lowlands, and they're all just singing and dancing and like, the people in the back are really far away from the stage. They're almost not in the concert and they're still so hyped about it.
Melanie Esther: [36:17] Yeah.
Femke: [36:17] Yeah, that's a really good example because that, it shows that through the artist, basically, acting as this ritual leader, through the energy that the band actually projected. And I think that's a really, that one concert for me is a super interesting example. Just because I think we were just coming out of lockdown, as you said it was in 2022. We hadn't experienced this. We hadn't recharged.
Melanie Esther: [36:38] For three years.
Vincent: [36:39] Wow. Yeah.
Femke: [36:39] So it was just that summer and they just released Noodzaak.
Melanie Esther: [36 :37] Noodgeval.
Femke: [36:43] Noodgeval yeah. And a few other big songs that were really big. And people, just from the whole festival terrain just came like to see them. And it was exploding with people. And the energy they had was so good. And the whole crowd was infected with this.
Melanie Esther: [37:02] Yeah it was crazy.
Femke: [37:02] Like, from front to back. Everybody was singing along. Everybody knew the songs. And I think that, yeah, I think that's such a lovely example of how this actually works.
Melanie Esther: [37:11] Yeah.
Vincent: [37:12] So, you already mentioned that some genres are maybe less good at generating this collective effervescent feeling. And I think in general, like some concerts don't aim to have this jumping up and down and singing along. There's like, an extreme example is maybe jazz or classical music, but also a pop concert, maybe an Adele concert. You're just sitting in your chair or you're standing and you're just looking and maybe crying or maybe singing along, but it's less intense than a Goldband concert, for example. Is there still, can you still speak of collective effervescence then, or is that just, that's not going on there?
Femke: [37:49] Yeah that's a really good question. I would say that there are still moments of collective effervescence, although it's more diminished than, let's say, a Goldband concert or a K-pop concert. But in moments of, again, still knowing that this is the right moment to clap, or hearing your favorite song that you know is like a really big hit. It's in those moments again that you look around and people are kind of feeling the same emotion to you. That can still be really powerful, right? That can still have a similar kind of effect. But it's just less intense because it's less participatory.
So basically, the more participatory the music genre is, the more as an audience you're allowed and encouraged to participate in the music, the more intense this feeling is going to be. That doesn't necessarily mean that in an Adele concert there won't be collective effervescence, but it might not be as intense. And it might not happen throughout the whole concert. There might be songs, like she has some big numbers, belters where it will still occur.
But I think what you also mentioned with classical and jazz, I've done research into this, because this is something I'm super interested in, to know how different genres, like, is this something that everybody even wants? You know? Do we all want to be part of this collective effervescent experience? And like, I've written stuff on, is there a taste for collective effervescence? Right? Is there like an actual taste for it?
And what you see is that motivations of different audiences lie in different domains, right? So, your motivation to attend a concert might actually be different. So, you might go with the intention and the motivation to experience this kind of collective high, the solidarity with people around you to sing along, to participate. But there's also concerts where the motivation just lies elsewhere. It's something like, for example, as you said, like classical music and you want to go to experience something more individual. You want to have a reflexive experience where maybe you learn something about yourself. And then this collectiveness is less important. So, it doesn't necessarily have to be a motivation.
Melanie Esther: [39:55] But I think if, like, for example, if Adele shared, well, she shares a lot of personal stories in her performances. If she shares a personal story, and it touches the audience, then this can also be collective effervescence in the sense that everyone feels, well, emotional by her story or they recognize themselves in the story? Is that also a sense of collective effervescence, or is effervescence really about like, "yay!" And like, like the hype energy?
Femke: [40:25] That's a really good point. So, I think with pop, it's an interesting one because again, going off this idea of participation, it might not always be the case. It might not always be that the artist requires you throughout the whole concert to participate. And that doesn't mean that the moments that the kind of more ballady songs aren't impactful, because they definitely are. They can impact in more of an individual kind of emotion. You might connect it, and a lot of people do, to a certain kind of moment in your own life. You might connect it to a past memory that you have, but that's a very individual thing, and you might not even expect that the people around you to actually feel it the same kind of way. And during concerts you can also have an interaction with just the people around you as well, right?
Melanie Esther: [41:08] Yeah, if you see someone else crying, you're like: oh, you're feeling the same.
Femke: [41:09] Yeah. And that can also be super meaningful. Or you're there with your sister or your mom or your best friend who also really loves that song. Like, maybe going off one thing that you said about moments that can also maybe create a collective effervescence where it isn't participatory. Like the audience isn't actually, let's say, all singing along.
I did research at the Ziggo Dome a few years ago for a Trijntje Oosterhuis concert. And it was her jubileum. And she was singing all her old hits. So of course, it was a very collective effervescent experience, because everybody was loving singing along with all her old ones. But I remember, because I did a lot of interviews with the audience members, them all reflecting on the moment when she came out in this red dress that she had worn like twenty years ago, and still fitting in that red dress. And that was something that really stood out to them.
So, with pop, you also have this interesting thing that you're again, going, riding off motivation. Your motivation to attend might not necessarily, and the success of the concert might be derived not only from this collective experience, but also in, the memory and collective memory of this red dress and everybody just being 'onder de indruk', under the impression of this red dress. And that's also, I think, why pop is such an interesting one. Because it's all about the costume changes. It's all about the lighting. It's all about the newest technology. It's all about the show.
Melanie Esther: [42:43] Being surprised.
Femke: [42:43] Yeah, being surprised as well at the same time. And that's, I think, equally as important for the audience as well in those kind of moments.
Melanie Esther: [42:54] Yeah. So interesting. Yeah.
Vincent: [42:55] Wow. Maybe to talk a little bit more about those impediments to successful interaction. I think something that artists starting out notice, is that it's, it seems to be more difficult for them to create this same feeling, than artists that have hits and are on big stages. Why is that? I have some guesses, but I'm wondering, how do you look at that? So, artists starting out, maybe playing a smaller venue still. Maybe pubs and bars, maybe the smaller professional venues. Maybe they sell out, maybe they don't. Maybe there's a few people, maybe there's enough people but it's not full. Like, maybe some people in the front rows really know their songs already and they can sing along, but people behind them are just curious maybe about the concert the first time really seeing this. They decided to check it out. Why is it so hard to create this feeling then? Or why does it, at least to me, feel that it's much harder then?
Femke: [43:51] Yeah, I think that's a really good question. So, there was a few things you said there that was interesting. One of them, about filling up of space is that's super important, right? We mentioned already that being physically in the same space together is really important. But we have a term for this in sociology, we call it social morphology. Basically, what that means is the ratio of people per spatial area. So, the denser the space, the higher this energy is going to be.
So, you know the awkward feeling when you're the first one in the club. When you're, you know, you just walk in the door and there's like two other people awkwardly dancing on the dance floor. There's not going to be much collective effervescence going there, even though they might be there with the same intentions, have the same focus. But you're, you know, that's when it really shows that the space is important. So, I think what one thing that you said, with up-and-coming artists, if you're not filling the room, you might feel that as well. That there's maybe a bit of tension, that the audience can't really let go because, yeah, of this, morphological composition that is happening there.
Melanie Esther: [44:55] Yeah. Then they feel more like on their own islands instead of that they are on one island together.
Femke: [45:01] It's also, let's say, for an audience member, you're feeling where the action is, right? If you're literally just two of you or three of you on the dance floor, you're not, there's less of an energy even coming into it.
The other thing you mentioned, is I think also something we've already kind of discussed. So why is it harder for up-and-coming artists, who might not have a huge following, to kind of create these kind of feelings? It's because people are going maybe with different intentions. And that's kind of the example that you gave, right? That you might have some really, fans who already are following you on Spotify and know your songs and singing along, and then you might have people, and you have this so much as well, even at Eurosonic Noorderslag.
What you notice with Eurosonic Noorderslag, and these are kind of up-and-coming bands is, that you have some people who are actually really interested and who buy tickets as normal punters. And then you have the industry professionals. And the industry professionals are there for a very different reason than the punters. Right? So, you really have this disjointed kind of communities who are there for different reasons. They might share the same focus, but they're not really sharing the same emotional energy. Because one group is there for a very reflexive moment of saying, okay, well, shall I program this artist? Will I give them a record deal? And the other punters are there for the actual music, and because they know who they are, maybe they're from their local town, etcerera.
So, I think that that's, again, one thing that kind of happens if your audience is there not all for the music. Again, it depends if your music is high energy and you can get even the nonbelievers to believe and to participate. That's already huge. Like again, going off Eurosonic, Tramhaus is a bit of a Goldband kind of vibe as they're so high energy and they have so much charisma on stage that it doesn't really matter that the, let's say, the 'industry professionals' weren't really participating. Because the people at the front half of this venue were really going crazy, even if they didn't know who they were. So even if the artists can get that energy kind of going, get that participation going, then I think you can really overcome this boundary.
Vincent: [47:26] So if as a starting out artist, it is your goal actually to have this bruisbal-effect, the collective effervescent feeling, and you're starting out, it's good to play in a room that you think may be too small for you. Instead of maybe thinking: oh, I want to be ambitious, I want to actually play the bigger room, even if I can't fully fill it. That's actually a bad idea if you want to create this feeling.
Melanie Esther: [47:49] Yeah, it's better to sell out a small venue to create the collective effervescence.
Vincent: [47:54] Yeah. And then also, get people going a lot. So, lots of interaction, I guess.
Femke: [48:00] Lots of interaction.
Melanie Esther: [48:01] It's interesting because I feel like, now we are talking about this, I feel like for many concerts, collective effervescence is a goal to reach. Or for artists, it's a goal to reach that like kind of state of mind and that connected feeling. But of course, we were also talking about like how Adele can create this and if this is even possible. But it feels like if you are not reaching it, it would be like a negative, like an unsuccessful conversation, like this. But on the other hand, there of course also will be listeners who do not aim to reach collective effervescence in a sense of that their music is not suitable for the bruisbal effect. Then how do you see this? Like how do you see that part where it's not about that?
Vincent: [48:53] Well, I think about that what you just said about the - that it's more of a personal experience, like maybe if you're crying for a song that's about maybe the song is about someone who lost someone and you just recently lost someone and you're crying. You're not thinking about the rest of the crowd at all. You're thinking about the person you just lost and how you recognize that in the song.
Melanie Esther: [49:10] And then that experience is also okay. I feel like in this conversation we were talking a lot about how we all want to reach that collective effervescence, but it's also okay to have a personal experience and many artists aim for the personal experience.
Vincent: [49:25] I mean, there's lots of niches where there's just, I mean, I'm thinking of certain metal genres where they're just bobbing their head. And nothing more is going on. And then there's other metal genres where there's maybe mosh pits or something, which then I think mosh pits are also a symptom, I guess, of collective effervescence?
Femke: [49:37] For sure yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you're totally right. Like different audience members are going to have different motivations to attend. So, you could be motivated by this collectivity, but you might also be motivated by more individual or personal experience. And different concerts accommodate those different things. And I think as an audience it's kind of about expectations, actually. If you're going to, like, the success of the artists that you're going to is to do largely to do with the expectations that you have. Will this collectivity occur or not? And if your expectation is that it will be there, because you're used to seeing that and it isn't, then it's going to be a negative experience. But if you're going with the motivation to have more of a personal experience or to learn something about yourself, and then there's no collectivity there, then there's no harm done.
Vincent: [50:30] That's actually very interesting. So as an artist, it's important to actually make sure the expectations of the audience are right for your concert.
Femke: [50:38] Yeah. Also. Yeah.
Vincent: [50:39] Because I think that's an overlooked point sometimes. And we talked about that before in this season as well. That the expectation of the audience has so much to do with the success of your, yeah, your ritual, your concert experience. But also how they come into it. If they all have the same expectation, then they will be aligned and that's one of the prerequisites of creating this collective effervescent feeling. And if they have different expectations then they won't and the feeling won't. Um, yeah. Okay.
Melanie Esther: [51:13] We talked a lot about the audience, of course, and about what is needed for them to feel collective effervescence. And we mentioned a little bit about the artist being a ritual leader. But I want to dive a little bit more into that. Like, what is the function of the artist? Like, how can the artist create the collective effervescence as well? Because a lot is about like the space, about the merch, about the signs, about the dance, about what to scream.
But how, as a listener who is an artist themselves, who are a ritual leader then, how can they influence this? And what kind of things can they do, next to like, saying "scream with me" or point the microphone to the audience? What kind of things also, that are in the hands of the artist can also create collective effervescence?
Femke: [52:01] Yeah, I think it's, along with the things that you just mentioned, I think it's to do with engagement. So that's also what the audience really feels. Like, and then that's maybe the difference between, let's say, a Tramhaus or a different artist that I saw at Eurosonic Noorderslag. Was that they weren't necessarily talking too much to the audience or saying they don't - I don't think they said once "audience scream with me", that's not part of the genre. But there is an engagement factor there, there's an energy factor there that is also transportable, right? That's transposable from the artist to the audience. Right? It's like infectious as well.
So, I think a huge part of it is that interaction runs actually broader than the interaction you have with the audience members. So, you're interacting with the people around you. You're interacting with the entire crowd as an audience member, but you're also interacting with the artist. So, there's this connection that the artist really needs to make, and the energy starts with them. So along with just saying, "shout with me" or "sing with me", it's really just that the artist also is on the same emotional wavelength as the audience as well. Right? That's where this ritual starts, is basically with the artist. So yeah, my recommendation would be to, it doesn't necessarily even need to be high energy, but it needs to be engaging. It needs to be…
Vincent: [53:21] A certain intensity to it almost. But I think that's interesting, because, indeed we've been talking about how this crowd enters the concert space, but how you as an artist then enter this concert space, if you're down and your audience is up, you're going to notice this as well. You're going to disrupt your own...
Melanie Esther: [53:35] Well then your audience will probably not be up at all because they will feel that something is off.
Vincent: [53:39] You'll take them down. Even if they were up already. And I think as, in my experience of playing and giving concerts, I think we sort of intuit this as artists, in the sense that we have this saying of like, ‘you get back whatever you put in.’ And, like, maybe especially if it's an energetic show, we'll do a little mosh pit in the backstage or we'll hype each other up, or we'll do some jumping jacks together and stuff, just so you're loose and you're already quite energetic. And then, of course, you're very focused as well. But that then, I hadn't even thought about that. Yeah, but that's super important. Then again, also for enabling this to happen.
Melanie Esther: [54:16] Yeah, of course. But this is also such a big thing to think about. How do I want to engage with my audience? How do I want my audience to feel? Those are the things that we talk about. What do you want your audience to experience? You know? And those yeah, those things start with the artist who, yeah.
Vincent: [54:33] Yeah, maybe in episode two of this season, we talk about what do you want your audience to experience? And maybe this episode really also comes down to, how can you enable your audience or that moment to allow for those experiences to actually happen?
Melanie Esther: [54:50] Yeah, because, for example, we talk a lot about him, but maybe that's also because he's doing the Eurovision, etcetera. But Joost Klein, he, when he did the AFAS Live in November 2023, he on the like poster / invitation that you received when you bought a ticket, there was like a note, like, “hey, please come in a white blouse and a black tie.” And well, that collective effervescence based on clothing was created by the artist. If he didn't say this, if he didn't mention that he would like people to come in that outfit, then that part of collective effervescence wouldn't happen. Right?
Femke: [55:27] Yeah.
Vincent: [55:27] Yeah and Joost does something else as well. On his posters, he says, “please”, he calls his support acts his "friends". “Please come early to support my friends.” He always, please come early, to support my friends.
Melanie Esther: [55:36] Yeah, they are his friends.
Vincent: [55:39] And this is actually super important for this, because he wants them to be aligned by the time he takes the stage. And he's one of the only artists that really asks for that. Like please come early to see… because usually if you see images of a support act, you might see a room half-filled or less.
Melanie Esther: [55:54] I saw this last weekend, yeah.
Vincent: [55:56] Yeah, yeah.
Femke: [55:57] I think this even goes back off something that we started nearly the conversation with. It's like, the artist has then another role to play. So, for example, kind of already getting a mood going before the show. So, for example, saying that they have to come wearing certain kind of clothes or setting a tone by saying, “my friends are going to be there come early.” And I think that actually that's happening a lot now as well. A lot of artists giving audiences, again, this autonomy or this kind of nearly power to also determine how the show is going to go.
Melanie Esther: [56:27] Or fill in a survey, “which kind of songs should be on the set list?” Like those kind... Lauv, I know does this as well. Yeah.
Femke: [56:32] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Vincent: [56:36] Alright. Coming back to the title of this episode, 'why we gather'. Yeah, what have we learned? Why do we gather? We gather for this, sometimes, we gather for this collective effervescent feeling. This ‘bruisend’ feeling. It makes you more confident. Makes you feel more confident. Makes you feel alive, I guess. And that lasts a bit and it wears off eventually, and then you have to go to a concert again and sort of recharge that. Is one part of why we go to concerts. What would you say are the reasons we go to concerts? Why do we gather? Why do we gather at concerts?
Femke: [57:13] Yeah. Along with what you said. Yeah, I think that's it. To just get this positive individual feeling and to get simultaneously, this positive collective feeling. Right? So that's what we've been kind of talking about today. The outcome is split into you have this individual outcome where you feel more confident, you feel more energized, that you also take with you afterwards and simultaneously it's also this collective feeling where you feel belonging and solidarity, which again, are really important to people and really important to society. That we also have these going on, that we generate these 'we-feelings'.
Because that's I think something that we didn't talk about today is that, although there are boundaries that we set up that help create this collective effervescent feeling, right, that show that you're interacting in this interaction ritual. And also, that people within it share similar backgrounds. That's very usual to concerts. It's also great for bridging boundaries. So, if you are in this experience together and you happen to be, let's say different for any amount of reasons, any other kind of backgrounds, you can actually also bridge differences as well. And that's also something that is so powerful about music as well. So, it's great for creating solidarity as well. And I think that's something that we really crave as people. Is belonging, fitting in.
Vincent: [58:49] Then, always our final question, and I think it's especially fit today. Because we always ask this, but now it seems like it's just made for this episode. It's our alien-question. And it goes as follows. Imagine an alien lands on Earth, and this alien doesn't know about Earth. It doesn't know about humanity. It doesn't know about our culture. And you get the chance to introduce this alien to us. And you do that by taking this alien to a concert. How would you explain to this alien what a concert is?
Femke: [59:21] So before we go? I would be like, hey, alien, you want to come to a concert with me tomorrow? And then I have tell him.
Vincent: [59:26] And the alien is like: whats that?
Melanie Esther: [59:27] What is a concert?
Femke: [59:27] What is a concert? Uhh, I would say that a concert, yeah, he doesn't know what music is either. Does he? He doesn't know - is something, on a surface level is entertainment. That we like to think of something that entertains us. So, something that we do that's fun and enjoyable. But at the same time it has deeper important individual and societal implications that it also makes people happy and gives them energy on other kind of levels and makes them feel part of groups and other kind of levels. There, we tied everything together. I hope he knows what all those concepts are. Maybe he should listen to the podcast first, and then.
Melanie Esther: [01:00:19] Maybe you can share the podcast with the alien.
Femke: [01:00:21] Yeah.
Melanie Esther: [01:00:22] Alright.
Vincent: [01:00:23] Alright. Is there anything we want to highlight from this episode? Anything you think, if artists can only, if they can only remember one thing that we set this whole podcast, this whole conversation, what would you want them to remember or take away from this episode?
Femke: [01:00:38] Oh, I think that what we kind of ended the conversation on, kind of talking about that energy is transposable. So go out there and have fun yourself. Like, and audiences will be infected by that. And that goes with all music genres. If you are interested in creating this collective effervescent experience, or if you're more interested in creating more individual experiences, it starts with you. I think that's a...
Vincent: [01:01:12] Nice have fun. Keep having fun. Femke Vandenberg, thank you so much.
Melanie Esther: [01:01:16] Thank you so much.
Femke: [01:01:17] Thank you for having me!
Outro: [01:01:19]
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