Inspiratie

Below is a list of everything we discuss in the podcast.

Click on the links for more information.

Connect with The Live Coaches

The Live Coaches: Instagram -  Website

Melanie Esther: Instagram - Website            

Vincent de Raad:   Instagram - Website

Connect with Bumble B. Boy
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bumble_b_boy/ 

Website: https://bumblebboy.buzz/

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@BumbleB.BoyBZZT 

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/3H675lD04vZ7FxlV1SdVNK?si=ale_PDwnS-OLwo3l9_F_Hg

Links

De Basis, Nijmegen (venue)

https://debasisnijmegen.nl/over 

Best Kept Secret (festival)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_Kept_Secret_(festival) 

Down The Rabbit Hole (festival)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down_the_Rabbit_Hole_(festival) 

Into The Great Wide Open (festival)

https://intothegreatwideopen.nl/pagina/about-into-the-great-wide-open-en 

Winnie the Pooh (Disney character)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnie_the_Pooh_(Disney_character) 

Jack Sparrow (fictional character)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Sparrow 

Patronaat (venue)

https://patronaat.nl/over/ 

De Roos van Nijmegen (band competition)

https://www.doornroosje.nl/festival/de-roos-van-nijmegen/ 

Nijmeegse Vierdaagse (event)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Four_Days_Marches_Nijmegen

Humphrey B Bear (fictional character)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humphrey_B._Bear 

The Wiggles (children’s music group)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wiggles 

Blue’s Clues (children’s TV show)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue%27s_Clues 

Villa Achterwerk (children’s TV show)

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villa_Achterwerk 

Spongebob (animated TV show)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpongeBob_SquarePants 

Adventure Time (animated TV show)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventure_Time 

Ben Ten (animated TV show)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_10 

Pee-wee’s Playhouse (childrens TV show)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pee-wee%27s_Playhouse 

Pee-wee’s Big Adventure (comedy film)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pee-wee%27s_Big_Adventure 

Play School (children’s TV show)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Play_School_(Australian_TV_series) 

Confidence Man (artist)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confidence_Man_(band) 

Elvis Presley (artist)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elvis_Presley 

Elvis in Las Vegas (show)

https://youtu.be/v6UySrIs_8o?si=c3n54paUCAWl182F 

Sabrina Carpenter (artist)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabrina_Carpenter 

Chappell Roan (artist)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chappell_Roan 

Charlie XCX (artist)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charli_XCX 

Era’s (concept)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Eras_Tour 

Taylor Swift (artist)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_Swift 

Fountaines DC (artist)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fontaines_D.C. 

The 1975 (artist)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_1975 

Bumble B. Boy TV show (online TV show)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2upf3KwASE 

NPO Zapp (children’s TV platform)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NPO_Zapp 

Clean Pete (artist)

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_Pete 

De Vereeniging (venue)

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concertgebouw_De_Vereeniging 

Erik of het klein Insectenboek (film)

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_of_het_klein_insectenboek_(film) 

Rien Bekkers (costume designer)

https://rienbekkers.nl/about/ 

Zeitgeist festival (festival)

https://www.doornroosje.nl/festival/zeitgeist/ 

Oor (magazine)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oor

Oor review Bumble B. Boy op Zeitgeist festival

https://oor.nl/news/uiteraard-is-shame-de-klapper-van-de-avond-op-tweede-zeitgeist/ 

Eric André

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Andr%C3%A9 

Adult Swim

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adult_Swim 

The Simpsons (animated TV show)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Simpsons 

Personal Trainer (artist)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Trainer_(band) 

Understanding Comics (book)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Understanding_Comics 

Jelko Arts (comic book artist)

https://www.jelkoarts.nl/over-jelko-arts/ 

Torre Florim (artiest)

https://www.instagram.com/torreflorim/ 

FKA Twigs (artist)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FKA_Twigs 

Carré (theatre)

https://carre.nl/en/page/about-carre 

Parker Fans (artist)

https://esns.nl/en/festival/artists/parker-fans/ 

Popronde (showcase festival)

https://popronde.nl/popronde 

Fiep (artist)

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiep_(band) 

Maryn Charlie (artist)

https://popronde.nl/profiel/14579 

Cloudsurfers (artist)

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloudsurfers

Eurosonic Noorderslag (showcase festival)

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noorderslag 

Oerol (festival)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oerol_Festival

Doornroosje (venue)

https://www.doornroosje.nl/over-doornroosje/ 

Merlijn (venue)

https://www.doornroosje.nl/special/merleyn/ 

Skatecafe (venue)

https://3voor12.vpro.nl/artikelen/overzicht/2024/ade/Skatecafe.html 

K3 (artist)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K3_(group) 

Stop Making Sense (concert film)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_Making_Sense 

Talking Heads (artist)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talking_Heads 

David Byrne (artist)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Byrne  

TLC x Bumble B. Boy – TRANSCRIPT 

Tom:  [00:00] Often people say like, "yeah, you could cover yourself in honey and roll around on the floor." And for me, I'd be like: that's not Bumble B. Boy. That doesn't make any sense.

Vincent:  [00:09] Right. Why not?

Tom:  [00:10] Yeah. Because, well, for me, Bumble B. Boy is a children's character. And that's more like a, that's more like some crazy absurdist, like, Adult Swim stuff. That's not, like it should be like an innocent... It comes from a place of innocence. And you want to teach someone something and like a Bumble B. Boy show, I want to teach you a lesson and then somehow, because of how I am as a performer, I somehow manage to mess that up, you know? But I don't, like, go out of my way to cover myself in honey and roll around on the floor, you know?

Yeah. So, I think it's a little bit like, understanding who you are as a performer and who you are as a character. And I think every musician is a character on stage anyway. So, what makes sense there? There should be things that make sense to you and things that don't make sense to you. Do you like interact with the crowd? Do you not interact with the crowd? Yeah.

Tune:  [01:03]

Hey! 

I’m Vincent de Raad and I’m Melanie Esther and we are ‘The Live Coaches.’ 

We help artists translate their unique story into a live experience. 

On our podcast we talk with experts from both in and outside the live music industry. We share valuable knowledge, new insights, and tips to that you can apply to turn your performance into an experience. 

Follow us on Instagram @thelivecoaches for photos and videos of all the examples we discuss. And visit thelivecoaches.nl for show notes, transcripts and more information about our coaching and workshops.

Ready? Let’s go!

Vincent:  [02:01] Hello and welcome to a special episode of The Live Coaches, in front of a live audience in De Basis in Nijmegen. Before I introduce our guest for today, for those of you who don't know who we are, my name is Vincent de Raad and this is Melanie Esther. And together we are The Live Coaches. As The Live Coaches, we coach artists in translating their unique story into a live experience. We do this through coaching, masterclasses and workshops and through this podcast, where we talk with experts from both in and outside the live music industry to bring you valuable knowledge, insights and tips that you can apply to turn your performance into an experience. Wherever you are in your process and whatever budget or tools you have. 

Then now onto our guest for today. Hi. Our guest today is art punk artist Tom Harden, better known as 'Bumble B. Boy.' 

Tom:  [03:00] Hello.

Vincent:  [03:01] Now, if you don't know about Bumble B. Boy, it is quite hard to explain exactly what you're in for, so I'm going to read his bio to give you an idea. "Who or what is Bumble B. Boy? Ask kids at your local park and they'll tell you Bumble B. Boy is a failed children's entertainer who you'll often find at birthday parties wearing his trademark beekeeper suit. Ask any music industry insider, and they'll tell you Bumble B. Boy is the most bizarre festival sensation in the Netherlands and beyond, taking over stages with a unique blend of theatrics, storytelling and electric punk energy. 

Ask Tom Harden, the creative director and the titular Bumble B. Boy himself, and he'll tell you that Bumble B. Boy is a famous children's icon and media personality, or is soon to be. For now, what we know for sure is that Bumble B. Boy is an art punk musician and failed children's entertainer, clawing his way into a successful career in the children's media landscape. From putting on jaw dropping theatrical live punk shows to helplessly producing a children's TV show," we'll see a little bit of that in a second, actually.

Tom:  [04:13] Yeah.

Vincent:  [04:14] "Tom Harden of Bumble B. Boy has his heart set on making a name for himself no matter what." Today we're going to discuss his unique vision and the live experience that results. How he's making his remarkable and sometimes bizarre vision a reality. How he goes about finding an audience willing to immerse themselves in it, and how he got to playing successful shows on leading festivals like Best Kept Secret, Down the Rabbit Hole and Into the Great Wide Open. Bumble B. Boy, welcome to The Live Coaches.

Melanie Esther:  [04:45] Welcome.

Tom:  [04:45] That was crazy. I usually watch YouTube videos of, like, actors and on, like, Q&A's. And so, they always do the same introduction, but it's very weird to have it done to you. It's very odd. Well, I'm very happy to be here.

Vincent:  [05:00] Yeah. Thank you for being here. Yeah. So nice to have you. I'm very curious about this, because we did our research and researching you, I left with more questions than answers.

Tom:  [05:11] happy to answer any questions. I think it's very simple, but we can get through it.

Vincent:  [05:16] To start with, for those here in the audience and at home listening that haven't experienced the Bumble B. Boy experience yet, how would you describe your show to someone who doesn't know you?

Tom:  [05:30] I guess, well, Bumble B. Boy is a children's character. You know, like Winnie the Pooh or Jack Sparrow, you know? And, so if you go to a Bumble B. Boy show, you sort of as if you're going to a Winnie the Pooh show, but I didn't really make it much in the children's scene, you know, in birthday parties and so actually sort of translated the show more into a punk setting, like a, I think post-punk is quite big right now and quite popular. 

So, it's an easy thing to grab onto and ride the wave. So, it's sort of as if you were doing a children's show but then translated to a punk environment. And then you have quite a bit of incongruence. Because you see people there with like black coats and watching and they're not sure what to expect in like, a Patronaat or something in Haarlem, you know? And then what you get is with all colors and dancing and theatrics and, and fun. So, it's kind of a clash. That's what you get.

Vincent:  [06:36] Cause can you describe what we're literally seeing? Because your band members are dressed as insects?

Tom:  [06:42] Yeah, exactly.

Vincent:  [06:43] And you're in a beekeeper suit.

Tom:  [06:44] Exactly. Yeah.

Vincent:  [06:46] Can you, like, you walk into the room, you're performing, what do I, what am I about to see? 

Tom:  [06:49] Yeah. So, you see. So, I wear a beekeeper suit. That's like the character, the suit. Right? And then I have two beekeeper dancers with me. And that was kind of, that started because I did the De Roos van Nijmegen, and originally, I was doing it by myself. And then I found out you needed to be a part of a band, but I wasn't a band. So, I sort of went on Facebook and asked dance groups online if any dancers would join me. And two really lovely women joined me. So, then we became three, and then we had more band members join across a year and a half, and we evolved the band. 

You know, we tried lots of different suits and costumes, fruits, boy scouts and Nijmegen Vierdaagse walkers, clowns, etcetera. And then we really settled on the insects, because it kind of makes sense, right? Like a beekeeper and we have an insect band. And then usually, behind me, also is a set that was built by some guy here in Nijmegen. And he painted the set as sort of like a garden. So, we look like, a bit like if you're entering the show, you're entering the garden of Bumble B. Boy. 

And then I always tell a story about what I'm doing there at the show, what I'm trying to teach the kids or the adults in the audience. And things tend to not go that great during the show, because I get pretty nervous, and then I'm gagging and falling down. But we always end the show on kind of a nice note. A lesson to be learned or fun to be had. Something like that.

Vincent:  [08:19] Nice.

Melanie Esther:  [08:19] Like children's shows do.

Tom:  [08:20] Like a children's show, you know? It has to have... You have an exciting start and then you dip down and then you come back up to a nice climax at the end, just like a kids show.

Vincent:  [08:30] And that brings me to my next question. Maybe it's this, but what do you want your audience to experience during your show?

Tom:  [08:39] I think it's really, uh, actually why I make music and why I want to do things like this, is I just really like to impress people. So, you kind of just want to impress people. I don't know if you guys, you're musicians, right? You also have that feeling that you just want to make people think you're cool. It's kind of stupid, but that's kind of what it is that you just want to impress people. So, I just want to, like, put on the craziest show I can to impress people and make them say like, "wow". So, I think it's quite, if I was just going to play music, maybe you'll impress some people, but like, if you, you know, bring out the dancers and you put on this crazy show, then you're really going to impress people. That's the idea at least. Anyway, that's what I wanted to do. So yeah.

Vincent:  [09:20] And is it also like an emotional journey for the audience or how do you see that?

Tom:  [09:25] Yeah, it's a sort of… it's a lot of chaos, uh, cause I sort of throw everything out there. So, you have a lot of sounds coming from all over and often the band members get in fights or there is some conflict on stage as well. So, it tends to be, I don't know, just a general feeling of confusion and chaos. That's what really comes over. But hopefully at the end, if you think about it, you see the order in it all.

Melanie Esther:  [09:51] Could you try to say like three emotions that your audience should feel?

Tom:  [09:55] Uh, yeah, sure. I don't know, is chaos an emotion? I think confusion is a good one. Like a lot of energy, I hope it gives a lot of energy. But also, like, uh, I don't know. I sort of feel like, almost numbing, you know, like numb. It's cool to feel like numb after a show that, like, you know, if you rub like your head for long enough, it starts to go like you stop feeling it.

Melanie Esther:  [10:22] Yeah.

Tom:  [10:23] Kind of like that.

Melanie Esther:  [10:24] Okay, yeah, interesting.

Tom:  [10:25] If that makes any sense.

Vincent:  [10:27] Okay. So now I'm really curious. How did this vision for your live show take shape? Like where did this... So, you told us a little bit about, you were doing the Roos of Nijmegen and then you had to have a band. So, you get two back up dancers in bee suits.

Tom:  [10:44] Yeah.

Vincent:  [10:44] And then slowly the band takes shape. But obviously there's this whole, there's also an idea like a concept behind it. With the children's shows and the. When do you wake up and think like: okay, this is what the live show should be. Or this is the vision. Like, when did Bumble B. Boy...?

Tom:  [11:04] I guess it never really comes like, quickly, right? Like, you don't wake up and then you're like: yes, beekeeper suit and dancers and insect band and all that. I think, I started with the character because I knew that I wanted to be a sort of children's entertainer and play on those kinds of, that kind of imagery. And then started there just alone. And then it's kind of you just build from there with what makes sense, right? I mean, I think it makes sense that you have dancers, then. Otherwise, yeah, it just it feels odd not to have dancers in a way if you wear a suit like that and you're so crazy with the music, then yeah, it made more sense than a band. 

So that's sort of then the next step is sort of building that, and then it kind of makes sense that you want to build the visual imagery as well. So, then it feels like, okay, well you could use a beamer. And we did use a beamer for some shows. But then also you feel like it's a part of a physical world, right? Like a 2000's TV, like children's TV world. That's what I grew up on, and that's what I wanted to be. So, then we just built something by hand. Yeah. I don't know if that... it's more...

Melanie Esther:  [12:18] I think everything, like for you makes a lot of sense, but I... because I think you also said like, oh yeah, it should be insects, of course, because it makes sense. But I think everything comes down to the name 'Bumble B. Boy'.

Tom:  [12:30] Oh yeah.

Melanie Esther:  [12:30] And I think we could go back even a step a little bit more in the, you know, in the years or what. How did Bumble B. Boy happen? Like the name? Like why was it bees or anything like that?

Tom:  [12:40] Ah yeah. There's a children's entertainment character called Humphrey B Bear. So, I just stole that, basically.

Melanie Esther:  [12:48] Okay, yeah, literally, yeah.

Tom:  [12:49] So I stole Humphrey B. Bear.

Vincent:  [12:51] And this is in Australia, or where?

Tom:  [12:53] I think it's an Australian one. Yeah, but I don't want to claim it, because sometimes, I've often claimed things as Australian and it turns out to be like American or British, so it can't claim it. But, Humphrey B. Bear and I, I don't know, I think, the name just came to me. I don't know how exactly. Maybe I think I wanted to call myself first, just like Bumblebee. And then it changed to Bumblebee Man. And then I thought, no, that's too much. I'll put myself down a bit. Bumble B. Boy makes more sense. 

Um, and then, it's too obvious to do bee stuff then, you know? Like, you can wear the beekeeper suit and then be like, I'm the bee guy, but it's too obvious. And it's way more interesting to then really commit to being a children's entertainer, you know? And it sort of fits because that's what kids like to see if you look around. I mean, if you go to any daycare or like a preschool, it's just covered in like, cute bees.

Melanie Esther:  [13:45] Yeah. Okay. So, it started like by inspiration or stealing something.

Vincent:  [13:51] Do I have to imagine you like writing this down and having a whole document of who's Bumble B. Boy? Or is this all going on in your… Like, how does this take shape for you?

Tom:  [14:00] I moved to Maastricht, and I was walking around a lot and just thinking a lot. And I, actually, most stuff comes when you just start to just make something. So, I just wanted to make a Facebook page, and I just made a Facebook page, and I didn't have anything to write in the bio, so it kind of all came together there at that moment.

Melanie Esther:  [14:16] Yeah, you wrote the story while writing it?

Tom:  [14:19] Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Vincent:  [14:20] Well, that's actually a great point for artists as well. Like, things come together when you start putting them together literally.

Tom:  [14:28] Exactly.

Vincent:  [14:31] Like you have to make it. You have to make a first step in order to make the second step and a third step. And it's also what you just said of like, there wasn't this one moment where I knew about all the different elements that are together now. They slowly happened while taking steps, figuring things out.

Tom:  [14:49] Exactly. Yeah.

Vincent:  [14:50] And was this natural for you to just start taking these steps, or was it something that you had to learn doing?

Tom:  [14:56] I always wanted to do entertainment and live stuff, and I was also a musician back in Australia. So, some of these things were, I was a little bit used to, like setting up a Facebook page and writing a bio. But, no, it's all pretty new. I mean, doing a character like Bumble B. Boy, you know, is all pretty new for me. So, it's also a bit like finding inspiration and what I think is funny or what I think works and doesn't work. So, watching like The Wiggles, which, that's Australian, I can claim that. Watching Blue's Clues and these kinds of TV shows and then like, just feeling it and looking for inspiration there. And what you find is interesting and funny and not interesting or not funny. Yeah.

Vincent:  [15:39] Maybe that's a good place to go, actually. Like, where do you find inspiration or where do you look for that?

Tom:  [15:48] A lot of lot of kids TV shows. Obviously. There's a lot. And actually, when you talk about kids TV shows with people, they go nuts. You know? 'Villa Achterwerk', people were like, yeah. Oh yeah. I'd never watched it.

Melanie Esther:  [16:02] You mentioned Blue's Clues and I was like, whoa. I've not seen that for a long time. But it was so cool.

Tom:  [16:10] Yeah, Blue's Clues is great, I love Blue's Clues. Yeah. So, there's a lot out there, and I think it touched all of us at one point, like, we all have the shows that we really love. It was like Sponge Bob or Adventure Time or Ben Ten or something like that. That you go back to. It's very easy to go back to and really appreciate and love because you already did the hard work of, like, watching all the episodes and getting to know the characters. So yeah, I can watch quite a lot of kids TV and you see so much that's actually really creative, really fun. Did you ever watch Pee Wee's uh, Big House or something like that? I think it's called I don't know.

Vincent:  [16:44] I don't know if we have that here.

Tom:  [16:44] Pee-Wee, Herman's big adventure, but then there was a TV show that was like him in a house. And it's just crazy. It's insane. Like, it's sort of, he lives in a house, and everything in the house is a character. So, the chair has eyes and a tongue and then like all these, there's like little dinosaurs that live there and it's just, it's insane. But it's so creative and so awesome. So yeah, it's very easy to find inspiration there.

Tom:  [17:05] So how do you, can you maybe give an example of something that you saw on a TV show that you translated to something in the world of Bumble B. Boy and how that translates?

Tom:  [17:13] Or of course. There was a TV show called Play School. Play School, it was just a kids TV show. And they got to go to, they talked, they did a little, uh, well, what they did was story time. I really liked that. So, we actually we took that and put it in the Bumble B. Boy show as well. So, a live story time where you tell a story live on stage. That's a sort of just things you can just take it and put it in.

Vincent:  [17:37] So there's literally someone who reads a script?

Tom:  [17:39] They read like a children's book live.

Vincent:  [17:42] Right. 

Melanie Esther:  [17:42] Ah yeah.

Tom:  [17:43] And they say, “and the bear, he went into the house and there you see the bear and there's the house”, and then you just change the page. Oh, that's very sick. I'm going to do that myself.

Melanie Esther:  [17:53] Yeah.

Tom:  [17:55] Yeah. I think really the value of stealing things is like, is really high. It's so... Yeah, just steal things. It's so easy and actually really valuable. Yeah.

Vincent:  [18:04] Yeah and usually actually your own combination of the things that you steal becomes its own thing again.

Tom:  [18:09] Exactly. Even if you steal it like eventually you put your own self into it a little bit. 

Melanie Esther:  [18:14] Yeah, it has never been done by you, I always say to artists. Yeah.

Tom:  [18:17] Exactly.

Vincent:  [18:18] Yeah.

Tom:  [16:18] Yeah, yeah.

Vincent:  [16:19] We always send little prompt mail to our guests with some questions. And one of the questions is like, is there any other artists or inspirations that we could talk about? And what's interesting to me is that next to the TV shows, you also mentioned, Confidence Man, which is an Australian act. Elvis in Las Vegas, which is super interesting to me because I wouldn't have thought that at all. And also, the live shows of the new wave of pop stars now. Such as Sabrina Carpenter and Charli XCX and Chappell Roan.

Tom:  [16:51] Yeah. Super cool.

Vincent:  [16:53] What do you take away from those shows?

Tom:  [17:58] Okay. I think with the pop stars, what I think is really cool, is that it, and I think it's always been through pop stars, right? But it's just, we know now because we all see Charli XCX, etcetera. But I think, like, it's really well branded shows. So, I think they take a single kind of concept or idea, and they just push it out to the whole show. So, if you look at like Sabrina Carpenter, it's all in like kind of a house, you know? Or this, like, sort of mansion. And everything feels like it. And it's big and bombastic, but it really works. And same with like, Charli XCX is like one woman show and she just, like, holds the whole audience with quite bare, minimal design. And just sometimes, like a few words that pop up and she's just dancing there, and everyone is going nuts.

Vincent:  [19:48] Yeah.

Tom:  [19:48] And Chappell Roan, it's also like a big bombastic kind of theatrical thing with the costumes and it really plays on the kind of drag show look and everything and that feel. And I think that's, if you take a single idea and you kind of expand it out into a show, it becomes a bit of like a yeah, you say 'eras', right? In, like, in nowadays they say like Brat era…

Vincent:  [20:10] Yeah like, Taylor Swift's eras. 

Tom:  [20:12] Or Taylor Swift's eras, you kind of brand yourself and market yourself and then, it's very easy then to progress because you're not stuck. You can just make a new era. Right? And I think if you look at like, even like Fontaines DC, you know?

Vincent:  [20:26] Yeah.

Tom:  [20:26] Like they're really also good at that. And if you look at like the last album and the way that they kind of did that cycle, it's all quite well branded and you see it in the live show and the way that they dress. And that, then they're not like, they weren't here to. Well, they could, but I doubt they'll hit like a plateau, because you just do a new thing.

Vincent:  [20:45] It's like a new concept. I think, the houses are in... The 1975 also did that. Their last show, or their current tour is also in a house. And Sabrina Carpenter indeed. There's like the bedroom. And then she does a song on the bed where she's sad, and then she's behind the makeup table and she's going down the big staircase of the house, and so you're in a room and then, oh you have your pyjamas on. And in the end of the show, everyone's fallen asleep, but they have to wake up for the encore. It's all that kind of stuff.

Tom:  [21:12] Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Melanie Esther:  [21:13] Yeah.

Tom:  [21:13] And why can't we do that, right? Like. I mean, we don't have money, but you can also brand your show and make it...

Speaker3:  [21:20] With 'we' you mean like smaller artists with less budget?

Speaker2:  [21:22] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Like alternative artists in the music scene, like in the Netherlands. That sort of feels like it's something so far away. That it's like, it's in a stadium.

Melanie Esther:  [21:34] Yeah, like they can do it because they have a big budget, because they have a crowd, fans.

Tom:  [21:37] Yeah. But I think if you just sort of find a concept, an idea and you, you build on that in your show, then yeah, it's the same thing, people. It sticks in people's mind and they'll love it.

Vincent:  [21:48] Yeah. Can you say some more about that? What's the value of approaching a show like that?

Tom:  [21:53] Well, I think you need to stand out. That's the first thing. It's so important to stand out. It sucks to, I don't know, to see a band that is just sort of doing what bands do, I think is like such a missed opportunity.

Melanie Esther:  [22:10] Playing songs, that's it.

Tom:  [22:12] Yeah, just playing songs and that's it. It's like, you need to... It's another marketing thing. You need to find a unique selling point, right? And it sounds super shallow, but you do. Because most people kind of just have a shallow understanding of who you are. You know? Only a few people are going to be, like, really into you, but most people are like, just see you from a distance and they get an idea and then they move on.

Vincent:  [22:38] Right.

Tom:  [22:38] Especially like and maybe it's also a bit of a Dutch thing, but like, you know, festival culture is really big here. It's awesome, but it also means that like how people watch you is from a distance, and then they go to another band and then they go to another band. So, kind of being able to brand yourself and having a unique selling point then that you can also translate live is then really important.

Vincent:  [22:59] Yeah. So, like if I've been at a festival and I meet up with my friends again in the evening, it's like, "oh, what did you see?" Like, "there was this guy in his beekeeper suit." It's probably the first thing I'd mention.

Melanie Esther:  [23:07] With insects around him.

Tom:  [23:08] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Vincent:  [23:09] And then it's. I've said two sentences and there's only one artist I could possibly mean by that.

Tom:  [23:15] Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And it's not like you have to go and, you know, shove your hands in toasters and smack them together on stage. It can be like something very small even. I mean, put disco balls on your amplifiers and spin them around or, I don't know, do something that works, but I think, first, before the live thing, you should also just think about, like, as an artist or a band: what is my unique point? Like, what do I do stand out? You know, like the elevator pitch. You don't want to ever say, like, "I am a post-punk band from Amsterdam" or something.

Vincent:  [23:50] Right.

Tom:  [23:50] Because. Okay, great, but, yeah, you know? Like, what's something new or cool or unique that you're bringing to the table?

Melanie Esther:  [23:57] What is your elevator pitch? Could you do it for us?

Tom:  [24:00] My elevator pitch? Yeah, sure. I'm, just, that I'm a failed children's entertainer trying to be a TV star in the Netherlands. That's it.

Melanie Esther:  [24:08] Cool. Yeah.

Tom:  [24:09] Yeah. Um, but, yeah, I think, um.

Vincent:  [24:13] I think, by the way, like, now you're speaking of, like, a “TV star in the Netherlands,” which I think, that's broader than just being a music artist. Or is it? Is it broader? How does that work for you? Are they separate things? Is it one thing?

Tom:  [24:28] I don't think it, uh, well, I don't think it has to be a separate thing.

Vincent:  [24:32] Because maybe tell us about, actually, before we go on, you're making a TV show. Or something like that. What's going on with that?

Tom:  [24:39] I made a pilot episode for a TV show. Kind of with NPO Zapp. We have silent support from NPO Zapp. We actually produced it and filmed it here in Nijmegen. It has a lot of young Nijmegen talent in it. Young, I mean like, 6 to 8 years old talent, also older, but still young, like, 20-year-old like crew and cast and really awesome people. And we made it, yeah. We filmed it. We posted it live. We're sort of now going through the process of trying to get it, you know, it's a bigger release on NPO's Zapp, and we're getting good positive energy from them. But I can't say anything more.

Vincent:  [25:24] And people can find this on YouTube.

Tom:  [25:27] Oh, yeah you can find it on YouTube. Yeah. And the TV show is then the live show, but then as a TV show.

Vincent:  [25:34] So, it kind of looks similar to your live show setup. Like the stage design and stuff kind of looks like the studio design of the TV show. And you're also in a beekeeper suit and... yeah.

Tom:  [25:44] Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's just with no music. I mean, it’s with music, but no, like live music. That's it.

Vincent:  [25:49] Right.

Tom:  [25:49] Yeah.

Vincent:  [25:50] Maybe, is this a good moment to show that little fragment? So maybe. Can you?

Tom:  [25:55] Uh, well, this was more like. I just wanted to because… I only wanted to share it to address the obvious fact that I am injured. Because I had a show the other day in Amsterdam, and I thought it would be weird if I didn't address the elephant in the room. Because I had a show and then someone disrupted the show, because we said not to use the toilets in the back of the room. And then this guy, he got up and tried to use the toilets, and then I got a little mad, and I said, “please don't. You're distracting me.” And then we had a bit of a spat. And then at the end of the show, I mean, you can show it. It's a, uh, I don't mind. I'm not embarrassed by it at all. I got a little annoyed.

Tom:  [26:32] I am the big man. Yeah.

Vincent:  [26:33] So this was last Thursday?

Tom:  [26:34] Yeah.

Vincent:  [26:34] Yeah, okay, what are you going to do, big man? Where are you going? What are you going to do when you think you're so big? You think you're so big on this? Yeah. I'd like to see you. Oh. (noises) And now I’m gonna take a shit.

Tom:  [27:04] So, not everyone's going to like your work. Obviously, if you want to be unique. If you want to stand out, you're going to have people who don't like it as well. And that's fine, I think. Yeah, but I just wanted to address it. This happened. I'm moving past it now. We will go through the normal legal, how you say? Yeah. I don't know...

Vincent:  [27:25] The whole procedure?

Tom:  [27:26] The procedure. Exactly. Yeah.

Vincent:  [27:28] Right. So, actually, like we already talked about how your work can be quite confusing to people.

Tom:  [27:34] Yeah.

Vincent:  [27:35] How much do you try to make people understand what you do?

Tom:  [27:40] I try to do my best. I mean, when I do the show, I always explain, like, I'm a children's entertainer. I'm here to, you know, to give you a fun time and to learn a little bit about having fun and being happy. Et cetera. Et cetera. There's that level of the show. I think that's pretty like the surface level part. And then there can be, you know, layers deeper that people might want to dig in and try and understand. You know? What are we trying to say with the show? 

I did a Christmas show with Clean Pete. You know, Clean Pete? I don't know if any of you guys went to the Christmas show last year. We did a, sort of a war against Christmas kind of thing. When Santa Claus came, I was alone on Christmas Eve, and I was just singing a song. And Santa Claus comes and he tells me that there's a war on Christmas because the elves are unionizing on Christmas Eve. 

And then he takes me to the North Pole, and he's got a gun, and he starts shooting the elves, and then an angel comes and she says, "stop shooting the elves. You have to murder Santa Claus instead." And then so I fight Santa Claus, and I stab him with my guitar, and then the elves drag him away, and I sort of try and talk about what the lesson is, and I sort of say that the lesson is to be happy and let's just enjoy Christmas. And I got some very negative comments on Instagram about that. People didn't think the timing was very nice. To depict violence.

Vincent:  [29:21] Right.

Tom:  [29:23] Because you shouldn't depict violence ever.

Vincent:  [29:26] Like, does it, does it matter to you if people don't get it?

Tom:  [29:30] Uh, no it doesn't matter because people are never going to get it. If they don't understand it. I think it's cool. It's way, way cooler. It's punk.

Melanie Esther:  [29:38] If people don't understand something, it's cooler you mean?

Tom:  [29:41] Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You should. Uh oh, I set ads up on Instagram to play at like De Vereniging. And I was getting comments on those ads saying like, “stay away from De Vereniging.” And they were also other, really awful stuff. But I didn't understand Dutch. So, for me it was okay, but bad stuff. I heard from friends.

Melanie Esther:  [30:02] Yeah, but the ad was a video of your performance or?

Tom:  [30:04] No, it was just a video of me with a selfie stick screaming into the camera saying, “please come to the show.”

Melanie Esther:  [30:09] Ah okay.

Tom:  [30:10] And people did not get it. No, people did not like that.

Vincent:  [30:13] And do you think artists in general shouldn't care about what people think about what they do or if people understand it?

Tom:  [30:21] Um, no. Yeah, I think if, yeah, I think they should. I think artists should if they want to be successful, they should do a few things. You know, like a unique selling point and making a cool show, obviously. Make sure that you can stand out. But obviously you do what you want to do. And if people don't understand it, I think that's also... there will always be people that will understand it. I think. Eventually. Unless you're like insane and do... People will always, even if you're an insane person, people will always, someone will get it.

Tom:  [30:55] Right.

Melanie Esther:  [30:55] True fans?

Tom:  [30:57] Yeah, yeah. There was always, there's music for everyone nowadays. So, I think people will always, some people always get it. And if people don't get it, I think even cooler, then you're doing something unique and cool. So.

Vincent:  [31:09] And maybe something to go to next is that you use a lot of different disciplines, like stage design and physical art, like dance, if you want to call it like that. Costumes. There's all these different things you use to really build your world. How do you think about, as an artist, applying these different disciplines in your live show?

Tom:  [31:37] Yeah. I guess music is like one kind of art, and there's many kinds of art. And as an artist, you can totally just borrow from all kinds of disciplines and maybe should, because then you create really like an overall show, right? And I don't know much about, let's say, like dance. I don't know anything about dance. But if you go on Facebook groups and then you recruit two lovely ladies and they know about dance, so they can, they also help, you know, translate your vision and what you want. 

So, I only wanted, like, party dancing so they could easily translate that into sort of choreography. And, also same with music. I'm not that good of a musician, but the musicians that I worked with are like super good. So, they know how to translate it really well. And with art, I can't do art. But you work with people who know how to do art, and actually, you'd be surprised if you just ask people to help. They generally help you out.

Vincent:  [32:38] How do you explain what you want and in... Like how does how does that process go of like you have this vision and you want to add dance or stage design, or costumes? You find someone through Facebook, through wherever, to help you with that or to cooperate on that. Like, are you telling them, "oh, I'm seeing this image and I want you to create that and make it real?" Or is it like, okay, I want. Like, is it really a cooporation? Are they bringing in ideas or visuals for that? Like, how does that go for you?

Tom:  [33:16] Yeah, it's a bit of a balance, I think. And also, it depends on the person. Some people want to put in a lot of ideas, but sometimes it doesn't fit, you know? I think it's good that you have a, if you have your concept, you have your unique selling point. Right? That's the first thing that you need to communicate. So, if I reach out to someone then you first say, "I'm a failed children's entertainer and I make live children's shows for adults in the punk scene" or whatever, and then, I want to do, for example, costumes. I want to do insect costumes. Can we talk? And then you can meet up and you chat about it, and you sort of say what, because probably you've seen something that they did that you liked. Most likely. Or you show them inspiration. Things that you like, that you think are cool and what you want.

Vincent:  [34:04] Like a mood board?

Tom:  [34:05] Like a mood board, yeah. I worked with, did anyone see Erik of het Klein Insectenboek? Yeah. I emailed the costume designer of that. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Melanie Esther:  [34:18] There’s pictures of this on our website as well that you can check.

Tom:  [34:20] Oh awesome. I emailed the costume designer of that movie. And he's an old guy called Rien Bekkers. And he's a super distinguished, really quite successful costume designer. He's like, now, I think, 80 something. And he lives in, like, this big, beautiful home in the middle of Amsterdam. Yeah. No, it's like super beautiful! He makes costumes for museums now. And he said, like, "I am an old man and you're a young man, and I could be your grandfather, but I would like to pass, you know, my knowledge to you or something. So, then I asked him, would you just design the suits? And he just designed them for free. Which is insane. 

Melanie Esther:  [35:01] So cool yeah, wow.

Tom:  [35:01] And we got an old seamstress to put them all together. And it was, it ended up being very expensive, still, but the designing was... But yeah. So, I don't know, but when we, when I worked with him, for example, you kind of know that he makes insect costumes and you say like, yeah, I have no money. Can you do the same thing, but then with no money? And he sort of figures out a way to make it work, and he sends you sketches, and you think: I think it should be a little bit more like this, or I think maybe this. And then you go back and forth and then it gets made.

Melanie Esther:  [35:30] But it's also about finding people who believe in your ideas, right?

Tom:  [35:33] Yeah, yeah. And maybe it's also a bit like sort of I don't know if it's like survivor bias or something, but the people who end up working with you are then the people who like, sympathize with your ideas. You're probably not going to end up working with people who don't think it's cool.

Melanie Esther:  [35:44] Yeah.

Vincent:  [35:45] Right.

Tom:  [35:45] Yeah.

Vincent:  [35:46] Maybe one more question about things not quite going to plan or, as we just saw in the video with the throwdown, let's say. That seems to be kind of a theme also in Bumblebee's universe, Bumble B. Boy's universe, that things don't always go to plan.

Tom:  [36:04] Yeah. The failed part of the failed children's entertainment.

Vincent:  [36:06] Yes. And sometimes in real life, I'm. I'm using quotes right now. Quotation marks. Things also don't quite go to plan. Can you tell us maybe about a time that things went wrong for you on stage or a live show went, didn't go as you'd planned? And how do you actually deal with that then?

Tom:  [36:28] Oh, I've had so many, uh, like, maybe I'm just a chaotic person. Probably. But I think also because it's a chaotic show, you sort of just breed chaos. So, I've had so many things that have gone wrong in shows. I tried to do a birthday show in Zeitgeist Festival. I don't know if anyone was at Zeitgeist Festival last year. We wanted to do a birthday show for a young boy named Pim. He was turning eight years old. 

We had a whole story set up with Pim, and his parents who had left him at the Bumble B. Boy show because they were away in Curacao and Pim was on stage. We had a little eight-year-old boy sitting on a couch on stage on his iPad, and I wanted to dress up the band in balloons and everything. And I think no one thought it was funny at all. No one got it. And I got a really bad review in like Oor magazine. It was quite a sick review actually. It was quite legendary. Said like, "and now for the stupidest act of the evening."

Vincent:  [37:32] What happened in the room? Like how did the room feel during that gig?

Tom:  [37:36] Yeah, it was like dead silent. It was nothing, I got nothing.

Melanie Esther:  [37:40] Do you understand why it didn't work?

Tom:  [37:42] I think, uh, not really actually. I didn't really figure it out. Not everything is gonna work. 

Melanie Esther:  [37:49] Did you reflect on it? Or? 

Tom:  [37:50] Yeah. I think, we do quite a bit of promo, but it's, I think a bit more set up and pay off. And I think the payoff was not big enough and fast enough. You need to like, I tried to make. It ended up being a lot more deadpan and falling flat on its face, and it just didn't work for the audience. I think they needed something way more like fast paced and maniacal and crazy and like, Eric André Show kind of absurdist stuff.

Melanie Esther:  [38:19] And was that just a one-time idea, or was it like a concept that you worked on for a very long time and that you wanted to, you know, show to more audiences or festivals?

Tom:  [38:28] Ah, it was just a one-time idea, most things I do are just one time ideas.

Melanie Esther:  [38:30] So it was not like a one big loss? You were just continuing your ideas?

Tom:  [38:34] No.

Vincent:  [38:35] That's actually also something you said, like, to keep surprising your audience and to keep switching things up and trying new things. That, like most artists, especially while building their audience or their show, you have a thing and you expand on that thing, because it's a crazy amount of work to constantly come up with new ideas and then execute them once or a few times and then go with something new again. Like, you choose to quite often switch things up. Let's say. Why do you feel that's important to do?

Tom:  [39:13] Um I don't know. I think it's just interesting. I think it's cool.

Vincent:  [39:17] It's a lot of work, right?

Tom:  [39:18] Yeah, it's a lot of...  Well, it's not that much work. You just go to So Low and buy new costumes. But, um...

Vincent:  [39:24] Except for the insect...

Tom:  [39:25] Uh, yeah. Yeah. Then yeah. But, um, I don't know. I think, like, when you, when I started. I think it's quite cool to just constantly do something new because you keep everyone on their toes. And it works within the concept of being a children's show because it's like a new episode kind of or new characters. But it's also, I don't know, it's a sort of good selling point as well that it's like, always be surprised. You can't keep it up forever, because then I obviously, I settled on the insect costumes. 

But what I find it kind of interesting is that you sort of put the investment in to then settle on insect costumes and you have a single vision, but it can only last so long still anyway. Right? I think now it's been a year of doing insect costumes, but it's already time to. It's time to change. People have seen it. And especially if you do something so theatrical like mine. It's funny that, I think, I don't know, maybe it's a bit, I don't know if I'm right or not, but I feel that there is a sort of standard of shows like mine, that are a bit more theatrical, that it needs to come with something new a lot. But then when you look at a sort of regular band, the expectation is much less there. So, when something new comes. It's like, "whoa, it was really surprising!"

Melanie Esther:  [40:36] Yeah, I understand.

Tom:  [40:38] And then for me, I kind of set the expectation to always bring something new. So, I'm kind of painting myself into a box there. Yeah. But that's good though. I mean for me, I think it's nice to stay on your toes because then you have to stay creative and keep things interesting. And I think for yourself it's good as an artist or as a creative person, to keep pushing yourself to make something new and exciting. Yeah.

Vincent:  [41:04] And when you like, we talked a little bit about decision making already. Like some things feeling natural like certain costumes or certain choices feeling like, oh yeah, you have the dancers because it's a children's show. So that's like, how do you decide what ideas to go with and what ideas not to go with? Like, is it just a feeling or is it a thought process, like how does that go for you?

Tom:  [41:24] Yeah, it's a little bit of feeling, I think. Because for me, often people say like, "yeah, you could cover yourself in honey and roll around on the floor." And for me, I'd be like: that's not Bumble B. Boy. That doesn't make any sense.

Vincent:  [41:37] Right. Why not?

Tom:  [41:39] Yeah. Because, well, for me, Bumble B. Boy is a children's character. And that's more like a, that's more like some crazy absurdist, like, Adult Swim stuff. That's not, like it should be like an innocent... It comes from a place of innocence. And you want to teach someone something and like a Bumble B. Boy show, I want to teach you a lesson and then somehow, because of how I am as a performer, I somehow manage to mess that up, you know? But I don't, like, go out of my way to cover myself in honey and roll around on the floor, you know? 

Yeah. So, I think it's a little bit like, understanding who you are as a performer and who you are as a character. And I think every musician is a character on stage anyway. So, what makes sense there? And then it's also quite a lot of feeling though.

Vincent:  [42:28] So it's a lot about self-awareness of who am I and who am I not?

Tom:  [42:32] Yeah. And you can be super formal about it and like create a Bible or something for your character, right? Or you can make, what to do and what not to do. You know? The Simpsons have a very famous book, well,  it's not that famous, I think, but I know about it.

Vincent:  [42:45] Yeah, tell me more. 

Tom:  [42:44] But it's, with like, what the characters can and can't do, you know? So, actually, like, except for The Simpsons, no character in The Simpsons is allowed to have spiky hair, you know? And these kinds of things. So, it's with animation, but I think kind of the same thing applies to your own character or who you want to be as a performer. There should be things that make sense to you and things that don't make sense to you. Do you like interact with the crowd? Do you not interact with the crowd? Do you have like a big dance choreography in your performance, or do you keep it really relaxed? I think like Personal Trainer, for example, it doesn't make sense if, I mean, they do music videos with dance choreography, but, like.

Vincent:  [43:22] Dutch indie band.

Tom:  [43:24] Yeah, Dutch indie band Personal Trainer. But they wouldn't, you would never see them do choreography live and it wouldn't fit.

Vincent:  [43:30] No. Or it would be a silly choreography, like a joke.

Tom:  [43:33] Then it would feel silly.

Vincent:  [43:34] Yeah.

Tom:  [43:35] But for me, it doesn't feel silly.

Vincent:  [43:36] Right. Yeah.

Melanie Esther:  [43:38] So you can kind of make your own stage or live rule book almost, based on your brand?

Tom:  [43:44] Yeah, you could. I mean, you don't have to. It's a super formal way of doing it. I mean...

Vincent:  [43:48] It feels like something that writers sometimes do when you're writing a novel and you're thinking about characters. I think I've heard writers talk about this like, okay, develop a character, write a few pages on this character. Who is this person? What's their backstory? Who are their parents? Where are they from, etcetera. So, when you are writing the book, you can reference that in that sense. 

Tom:  [44:07] Yeah, but, it shouldn't, it should be more, like, it should take. Take it from the idea that it opens you up to things that you can do and not limits you from what you can't do.

Melanie Esther:  [44:18] Yeah. Of course. Yeah.

Vincent:  [44:19] Right.

Tom:  [44:19] I guess. Because the worst thing is, like you, then you say no to everything. You should be looking for new things to do and cool, crazy things that you can do, but within the sort of context that you made.

Vincent:  [44:29] Because so many creative ideas that you do as Bumble B. Boy you've only ever thought of because you thought of Bumble B. Boy. Like you would have never thought of some of these things if you hadn't first had that character to inspire you to think of these crazy things.

Tom:  [44:43] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. I mean, maybe I would have thought of something ridiculous to also make those ideas work.

Vincent:  [44:50] But then again, you thought of Bumble B. Boy.

Tom:  [44:51] But that sort of works out. Yeah. Exactly.

Vincent:  [44:54] Okay. We're slowly going towards audience questions, but before we do that, I think one more thing I was really wondering. You're in a bee suit. And in the beginning, you also have the mask and everything on. And I think during the show, you also take it off, at least the mask. I think for most artists, connecting with your audience during your show is quite a big part of that live experience. Like, being there together in a room and being able to look each other in the eye and really being there together. Like, does the Bumble B. Boy character and the costumes, does it, do you feel like it ever gets in the way of connecting with the audience, and does that matter?

Tom:  [45:35] Um, well, when I first actually kind of thought of Bumble B. Boy and with the mask, I was kind of hoping that no one would see my face behind it. Because I read a comic book once called 'Understanding Comics,' and they talked about like, abstraction and like, that if you make a face more abstract, so you have like a, like two dots and a smile and you have a really real face. And in between is sort of the line of abstraction. And kids often really identify with more abstract faces because, especially when you're younger, you have a very abstract idea of your own face and your own body. You know? 

Like, I see your face, I see your eyebrows and your beard and your nose, but you only kind of understand that you have eyes and a mouth. You think of your own face like a smiley face, you know? And kids, when they're really figuring out the world, they easily latch on to cartoons and abstract faces because that's also how they perceive the world, and they can easily see themselves in it. So that's why, when I was thinking of like, a kid's character, I thought it would be super sick just to have like, to have a very basic idea of my face, but not a really realistic face.

Vincent:  [46:48] It's like a sketch.

Tom:  [46:49] Yeah, like a sketch of your face. And so, when I first did, when we, there was an illustrator here in Nijmegen called Jelko Arts, and he made a first sketch of Bumble B. Boy. And it was also with, like, only a nose poking out and like, I think two eyes. And that was it. It was also quite abstract. Yeah.

Vincent:  [47:06] So how, can you relate this to, like, connecting with the audience live?

Tom:  [47:10] Yeah. Uh, that's what I wanted. And then I played a few shows, and I had to take it off because it was so hot and it was covered in my own spit and it stinks. It's really gross.

Vincent:  [47:22] It's very practical.

Tom:  [47:23] It's so gross.

Vincent:  [47:24] Yeah.

Tom:  [47:24] So, and I got feedback also from people that they really like it when I take it off, because I have also quite acrobatic eyebrows. And I utilize that during the show a lot. And also, a lot of facial expressions. So, I also heard that. But I think it's good to not, well, you need to come out with the hood first because that sort of establishes the character and then sort of like who's underneath it. And then the show sort of continues from there. But in terms of like connecting with the audience, I often make it really, make a habit of staring at people in the show and staring them down, and people get quite uncomfortable with it. So maybe it has the opposite effect of, like, connecting.

Vincent:  [48:06] Is it like an unconscious habit, or is it conscious?

Tom:  [48:08] No, it's a conscious habit. I do it for a reason.

Melanie Esther:  [48:11] This is also something we've talked about in one of our other podcasts. I think it was maybe with Torre, I'm not sure. But it was like, if you focus on one person, the whole crowd feels it. While sometimes you try to focus on the whole crowd, but no one really feels, you know, like that you're talking to them or anything. So, if you have like this conversation through eyes or stare down, everyone will feel the, you know, the feeling that's between you two. So that's kind of how you also interact with the whole crowd then, right?

Tom:  [48:42] Yeah, exactly. And it's like if you go to a kids show, right? If you go to a kids show, then they often also talk to the little kids and make them know that they're a part of the show even a little bit. They say, "oh, hello. Hello! Hello you!" You know, this kind of thing? That's really good for kids, I think it's good for adults, too.

Vincent:  [48:57] I think, there's this crazy moment of FKA Twigs performing in Carré, and they come off the stage to, like, the front row, and they're singing this song, and they're pressing their forehead against one of the audience member's forehead. Like, literally, they're in their face singing this song. And it's such like, the whole audience is, like, tensed up because it's such an intense moment.

Tom:  [49:20] Oh yeah? That's cool. I once jumped into the audience with my guitar and the lead and I sort of wrapped around the audience and created, like a lasso.

Melanie Esther:  [49:33] Oh! Yeah!

Tom:  [49:35] The lasso sort of trapped them. And then I had to go offstage. Yeah, but I thought it was funny.

Vincent:  [49:45] Yeah, I think we're almost there for our questions. Melanie, do you have any question you still would like to ask?

Melanie Esther:  [49:49] I think I have two questions left.

Vincent:  [49:52] Okay.

Melanie Esther:  [49:53] The first one is more like, well, we've talked a lot about your concept and your ideas and also about your vision on, you should not just play a song, as a band or as an artist. But I'm also very aware that not everyone has like this huge ass insects / bee concept. And I think there's like, there's levels and layers of certain bands and certain concepts. But I'm also wondering, what if you would start, what if a band would come up to you and say like, "hey, we're, right now we're just playing the songs that you mentioned right now. What would you advise us to do? What kind of the first step you would advise us to take to, well, create a more like concept around our show?"

Tom:  [50:33] Yeah. I guess, well, you make music first, right? So, you have to listen to the music. What is the music like? I think, for example, another example that's way more easily accessible than me. Do any of you guys know ‘Parker Fans’? It's a sort of an indie band in Amsterdam, and they're just up and coming now. So, they did Popronde, but they really like claim like that they're like a band of the night, you know what I mean? Like, you really feel it. They claim it, they own it. They're sort of a party dance band and they own the night. And they're always then in Popronde like the closing act. Like at 3 a.m. in the morning. But that's super smart, because then you really own it. And then you know from there what you can do and like, what's it going to look like and sound like. And if you have dancers, how are they going to dance? And if you have visuals...

Melanie Esther:  [51:17] What should the lighting be? The lights? 

Tom:  [51:18] Exactly.

Melanie Esther:  [51:19] Yeah.

Tom:  [51:20] So that's, anyway, more accessible. So, I think, but if you start with the music and what does the music sound like? What do you guys, what do they as a musician, what do you like? What TV do you watch? You know? Uh, what um.

Melanie Esther:  [51:34] Games do you play?

Tom:  [51:35] Yeah, what games do you play? What music? Do you like board games? Do you like interior designing? You know? Like, how can you take those things that you like and make, because everyone...

Melanie Esther:  [51:44] What's your favorite color?

Tom:  [51:45] Exactly, yeah yeah. 

Melanie Esther:  [51:46] I can imagine many artists as well.

Tom:  [51:47] Yeah, yeah. Look at Fiep, there's also right? Fiep, just everything orange.

Melanie Esther:  [51:52] Yeah. Maryn Charlie, blue. We can think of many artists like that.

Tom:  [51:55] Exactly.

Melanie Esther:  [51:56] So it's taking something that inspires you or intrigues you or whatever that it does and using that as a starting point for a concept.

Tom:  [52:05] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I mean, if you're a band, probably you're also friends, right? And you probably bond over certain things as well. So, it's also good to think, like, what do we all like together? And what is cool. The Cloud Surfers, that's another one. Cloud Surfers. Easy like unique selling point because it's just like mosh pit, crazy, noise. You know? And it's, but then you get the, I mean, much deeper than that. But then like on the surface, you already immediately get the idea. Right? So, and that's then I think probably starts more with the music, but also what you like and the kind of shows that you like to be at and the shows that you want to have. So yeah.

Melanie Esther:  [52:47] Yeah. I have one more other question, if I can, before we end?

Tom:  [52:50] Please.

Melanie Esther:  [52:51] You were talking about eras and episodes and chapters and I was just curious, like, do you already? You don't need to spoil it yet, if you want to, you can. But do you already have an idea, you said it's a year now that I'm working with the insects. Do you already have any ideas, are there already things like coming up to you for this new episode?

Tom:  [53:11] Yeah yeah yeah yeah. Uh oh, I can't say too much, but, oh, well, you know, things are going well with the TV show. And I obviously have sort of changed my sights. You know? First wanted to be a children's entertainer. Now I see the value in becoming a famous children's TV star. So, there's been a lot of work this year. But next year, hopefully what we'll see is that I become much more famous and we have a second album coming out that's going to be all about entertainment and the first single, which will be called 'I Want to Be a Star.' So, it's about my, so we're going to, you know, really work on the whole stardom aspect of it and really make me famous.

Melanie Esther:  [53:52] Cool. Exciting!

Tom:  [53:54] Yeah. So, 2025 is when I'll be on television finally.

Melanie Esther:  [53:58] You already know when this first song is going to be released?

Tom:  [54:01] Uh, no, but sometime at the start of next year.

Melanie Esther:  [54:03] This episode is going to be out in around the end of January. I don't know what that makes sense.

Tom:  [54:06] Perfect.

Melanie Esther:  [54:07] Okay, let's see.

Tom:  [54:09] That's great.

Vincent:  [54:10] Okay, then to the audience, do you have any questions? Are there any questions for Tom?

Tom:  [54:18] Yeah.

Melanie Esther:  [54:20] We can give you the mic.

Vincent:  [54:20] Get you the mic.

Audience Member:  [54:24] Alright. First of all, thanks for the great talk.

Tom:  [54:27] Thank you.

Audience Member:  [54:28] Good stuff. Um, I guess I've not been on stage more than twice, but I find it kind of difficult to be truly free to be as crazy as I am inside my head, basically, in public when it's seen. And I think what's keeping me from being that guy is the fear of standing out. Like, as you encourage me or everyone to do. And I guess the fear behind that is the fear of getting assaulted. So yeah, I guess you're the right guy to ask. Yeah, it's very real, I guess. I mean, I was just coming to terms with the fact that I might be, you know, overreacting. But, is there any particular way to sort of deal with that fear? I mean, maybe it's too soon now, but it was pretty intense to watch the footage as well. Like it's triggering.

Tom:  [55:11] Yeah. So more, you mean the fear of standing out?

Audience Member:  [55:14] Yeah. Like, yeah. The fear behind that fear of standing out. Like the fear of: what's the worst that could happen. And then sort of coming to terms with that.

Tom:  [55:23] Uh, okay. First, one thing is, like, it's so amazing how many things you can do wrong and people don't notice, like, it's insane. Like, we had one show in Noorderslag where the first song, our saxophone player dropped his sax and it broke. So, for the rest of the show, he didn't know what to do. So, he just sort of tried to copy the dancer's moves. And then also a fire alarm went off during the show.

Audience Member:  [55:48] I was there! Everyone was confused. 

Tom:  [55:49] Yeah. And everyone thought it was real. They all thought, they thought it was a part of the act. So, they were laughing, but it was a real fire alarm. So, it was like, it's crazy how, like how many things you can do wrong. And people will just think it's a part of the show, you know? And even in a show that's not like mine, but a normal show, there's like mistakes happen all the time and no one notices. That's the first thing. 

Second thing is, yeah. I mean, it's a performance, I guess. Right? So, maybe it's also a little bit of, like, detaching who you are as a person, to the person who's on stage. Because I think every musician is a performer and it sort is a performance. It's not really "real, real" in a way. It sounds weird to say, but you're putting on a show. So, it's, in a way, the person who's on stage is not the person who is off stage. So, if it helps, you can also create maybe a bit more of a gate between like stage and non-stage. And it can be like in the clothes that you wear or the way that you hold yourself or the way that you sing or play the guitar. You know? If you can kind of separate yourself from your stage self, that can also maybe help, I think.

And also like, and maybe it's a stupid answer, but like, after a couple more shows, it will just get so much easier. Yeah, it's also practice. You know? It's like if you can get through a couple shows, what do you do? You play bass or guitar or drums or you sing.

Audience Member:  [57:21] I sing. 

Tom:  [57:22] Yeah. By yourself or with a band?

Audience Member:  [57:24] With a band, yeah. 

Tom:  [57:25] Yeah, that's cool. That's good also, then you're with, around people, that helps as well, I think. But I think, yeah, if you just keep playing shows, you'll just get better and better. Like, and after a while, you'll just stop noticing at all. Yeah.

Audience Member:  [57:41] Right. Right. But this point of separating, like, your character from your real personality to me also feels like it's kind of defeating the purpose of being on stage in the first place. It's all about being seen as I am, basically. So, it's kind of a fine line.

Tom:  [57:52] Yeah, I don't know.

Vincent:  [57:54] Maybe this is actually interesting because after the break, we can actually, we have, we have a little segment where we can do more maybe feedback and input on specific case studies. So, we can also come back to this actually.

Tom:  [58:04] Sure. Okay. Yeah.

Melanie Esther:  [58:05] Yeah. But it was a really good question. I think something many artists struggle with as well. 

Tom:  [58:10] Who is the real you?

Melanie Esther:  [58:11] Yeah definitely.

Tom:  [58:12] Yeah. But yeah, I don't know I, I, I do think...

Melanie Esther:  [58:16] Maybe that's the whole magic of live is what's real?

Tom:  [58:20] Yeah.

Melanie Esther:  [58:20] Are there any other questions for Tom, especially about Bumble B. Boy or his process or anything like that? Since we have some time after a little break for the personal...Yes. Oh, sorry. The mic. Yeah.

Audience Member:  [58:33] Hi. Thanks for sharing your story. It was very interesting. I already wrote down a lot of ideas from it.

Tom:  [58:38] Oh cool, that's great.

Audience Member:  [58:40] Thanks for that.

Tom:  [58:41] My pleasure. 

Audience Member:  [58:42] Do you think it was more difficult or less difficult for you to find an audience because of your, let's say, crazy act? Because you're different?

Tom:  [58:54] I'd say less difficult. Yeah. I think, at first, less difficult. I think it's quite easy, or not quite easy, but it was for me, pretty easy to get a lot of interest very quickly because it's very different, you know? And then you stand out really easily. So that's really nice. And then it's sort of maintaining that or then turning that into something a bit more sustainable, that is then the really hard part. So, it's very easy then that people are like: okay, I've seen it, yeah, next. You know? And that is something that we also see in the Dutch scene, you know? Even for just regular bands, that there's a bit of a cycle, you know? You have a Popronde, you have Noorderslag and then you do festivals and then, maybe a club tour and then next. You know?

Audience Member:  [59:46] One year of succes and then what's next?

Tom:  [59:49] Exactly. And that's, then sort of, how do you beat that? And yeah. So as being a different act, I think it's even, it's… you have the higher highs that you can like, you go very quickly because everyone's like: whoa, something new and crazy and different. And then the maintaining and getting people to come, that's where really hard work begins, because you need to build the world out and bring the fans in and find new things. So maybe you need to tour and then you have new fans and then you need to do the same for that, that you need to nurture them and yeah, yeah yeah yeah. It's also hard work, but I think it's just much more fun. It’s just way more fun. So, it's totally worth it. Yeah.

Audience Member:  [01:00:31] Okay. Thanks.

Tom:  [01:00:32] Yeah. No problems. Did that, I hope that answered your question?

Audience Member:  [01:00:34] Yes. Absolutely.

Tom:  [01:00:35] Cool.

Melanie Esther:  [01:00:36] Anyone else? Yes. You can hand the mic to...

Audience Member:  [01:00:42] Yeah. There's a lot of theater in there and you are often on concert stages and on festivals. But what about when you, you are as Bumble B. Boy in the theater? I'm asking this question because I'm preparing a theater show of my music.

Tom:  [01:01:00] Oh, yeah.

Audience Member:  [01:01:01] So, you are so creative. Is it different? Would it be different when you choose that?

Tom:  [01:01:09] Yeah, it would be. I think, a part of what makes the whole Bumble B. Boy thing work is that it's not in a theater. Because it's sort of the clash of doing something like this in a musical setting. We played a show at Oerol, you know, Oerol festival? Also theater. And I walked around, and I have to say, I'm not a theater fan. I don't like theater that much. I was like: well, yeah. But I think doing it in a setting that is unexpected, that makes it work quite well. 

So, it's… I think, and then, yeah, that's when you get a lot of the excitement and interest because it's sort of like this theatrical thing, but it's in like a Doornroosje or Merlijn or something like that. If it was in a "theater theater", then you sort of lose the punkness of it, you know? It becomes a theater act. And that's not... And then I think you can also maybe do the opposite, right? You have theater, but then you make it a musical act. Well, that's just a musical. Well, maybe that doesn't work.

Melanie Esther:  [01:02:08] That's interesting. Yeah. Did you ever think about this? Like, would you ever want to have a theater show?

Tom:  [01:02:14] Yeah, so no. That's actually there. Yeah. So, I did, recently, this show that unfortunately ended quite poorly. But the show in Amsterdam at Skate Cafe and we did a live taping of the TV show, and that was then like we did our TV show, we had cameras set up and a TV screens that were like beaming. So, like, the cameras went straight to the TV. And we had a nice special guest, like a Jelly Cracker Wilson, the wildlife warrior who taught us tips on survival. We had Doctor Tony Halloumi, who's my personal coach, or yeah, life coach and spiritual advisor, who gave a sermon and also awarded me this jacket. And I also won best new TV show of 2024, which I'm quite proud of.

Vincent:  [01:02:59] Congratulations.

Tom:  [01:02:59] Thank you. And we also had live music and I did a storybook. So, it was really theatrical then and like half music, half theater. But it was in Skate Cafe, and it was sort of a seated event. It was also really hard to sell tickets then because people were like quite, they weren't, I think people were a bit scared about it. But yeah, making a seated event in a like a live music place, it all kind of hits on the incongruence. And that's what I find really interesting, is sort of doing what's unexpected in a place where you have other expectations.

Vincent:  [01:03:33] Right. So, if you're going to do a theater thing, maybe then you'd think about a theater what's unexpected in the theater and then do that? Turn it around on itself?

Tom:  [01:03:40] Yeah, it would be interesting. Yeah. And maybe then it's not interesting. Maybe it's just an inversion. Right? You have like an inversion and subversion. So, inversion is just like flipping things and that's not that interesting. But I don't know, I find if you take the environment and then you put things that shouldn't be in the environment, in that environment, then it's funny.

Melanie Esther:  [01:04:00] And surprising as well.

Tom:  [01:04:01] And surprising. That's why we laugh, right? That's the science of laughter.

Vincent:  [01:04:05] Yeah. It's something you didn't expect.

Tom:  [01:04:07] Exactly.

Vincent:  [01:04:08] Yeah. Is there any other questions? Otherwise, I have the final question. Yes.

Audience Member:  [01:04:17] So, what you hear often is that when musicians get more busy with their stuff, it gets tough to combine their working life or their study life with making music. Then they discover that being creative is tough to combine with, like the business aspect. So, how tough is it to be like constantly reinventing yourself and making music and like, handling the whole business aspect of it as well? Like, is it something you struggle with, or did you find like a method for it or what's it like?

Tom:  [01:04:43] Uh, no. I think what's helpful is having someone to bounce ideas off. Lke I said at the start, I always want to impress people. And it's nice to have like a friend that I just want to impress. So, I sort of just tell him ideas and then you kind of, like, are pushed to make cooler ideas because you just want to impress this guy, at least for me. That is really nice. So, it's sort of like a motivator. That helps a lot. Because if you, yeah… For me, if I don't have anyone that I can share my ideas with before I do it, then for me, I lose my motivation a bit. I just want to, yeah. And have to bounce ideas off. In terms of, like yeah, doing the rest. It's really hard, eh? Especially people management is really hard. That's like, being a band leader is also like a lot of HR work.

Melanie Esther:  [01:05:37] Yeah, definitely.

Tom:  [01:05:38] Yeah, that's really hard. And you don't expect that at all. Yeah. So, it's hard. But I think if you kind of - a lot of the hard work or like the ideation, like coming up with ideas and stuff, that's anyway at least for myself, I come up with, like, most of my ideas when making jokes with someone or like, just chatting, you know? I very rarely sit down at a computer and think: uh “Bumble B. Boy ideas 2025. Bees question mark. No. Maybe not. Uh, TV? Yes!”

Melanie Esther:  [01:06:14] Yeah yeah.

Tom:  [01:06:14] Tick. You know like, I'd never do that. It's always like, just like I don't think about it. I don't think about it. And then I'm just talking to someone and suddenly, you know, stupid ideas.

Melanie Esther:  [01:06:24] That's also like how we started this whole conversation, right? About inspiration from television, from games, from conversations, from friends, from people, situations that you experience. Right? It's doing things and then coming up with ideas.

Tom:  [01:06:36] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a bit the 80/20 rule, right? 20% of the output comes. No, wait, 80% of the output comes with 20% of the work.

Melanie Esther:  [01:06:46] Yeah.

Vincent:  [01:06:46] Exactly yeah.

Tom:  [01:06:47] Just like to talk to someone about it and probably something cool comes out.

Melanie Esther:  [01:06:51] Yeah.

Vincent:  [01:06:51] Yeah.

Tom:  [01:06:52] Yeah.

Vincent:  [01:06:53] Okay, I have two final questions then to close this conversation out. The first one that I just thought of when we were, um.

Melanie Esther:  [01:07:00] While you were talking.

Vincent:  [01:07:01] While we were talking, is do you feel like the character and the whole act Bumble B. Boy ever gets in the way of the music? That people cannot really judge the music on itself anymore because or they don't? Yeah. Do you ever feel like that is in conflict with each other? Of just appreciating and listening to the music?

Tom:  [01:07:22] Yeah. Well, for me: no. And I really want it to be that it… I would love to live in a world where it is sort of like, yeah, it's a crazy children's act and the music is also like this, and the dancing is like this, and everything is sort of judged on its own. But indeed, it tends to be that if you look at like reviews of your show or something like that, that they have six paragraphs on, like everything that they see and then like one sentence says, like, "and the music is okay." And then next thing, you know? Um, so yeah, it's difficult. Definitely. Yeah. It is difficult. Yeah.

Vincent:  [01:08:06] Yeah. Is there any, are you trying to balance that out more, or are you like, is there anything you… Is that something you think about?

Tom:  [01:08:14] I think what helps is to be more cohesive. So that actually the music should play into the idea itself. So, for example, I think with the chaos element that you sort I have the kids show, but then it's chaotic music and it's art punky and it's all over the place. That works, but that maybe also detracts a bit from the music. But if it's sort of much more cohesive whole that, for example, let's say I want to do a show about me being like famous, and then all of my music suddenly is like pop music. I think that makes sense. And then it would, you would hope that then people understand the music a bit more and it becomes a bit more a unified front, you know?

Vincent:  [01:09:02] Right. Yeah yeah yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Cause I saw you live twice. And I found, while doing research for this conversation, like listening to your music separately, really for the first time, properly. And it just also just, finding it an interesting experience, almost hearing the music for the first time, really. Because it almost felt to me like a different experience than experiencing it live, in that sense.

Tom:  [01:09:25] Yeah. No, for sure. I mean, actually the music kind of doesn't really fit with the concept, if you think about it. I mean, like some of the songs are like about medieval fools, in like medieval, like court jesters in medieval times. It's a bit all over the place, so it doesn't really, if I look back, you know, it's not as cohesive as it could be. So that's also like a, I think a learning point that, yeah I think if you make something that's much more cohesive with your live show and it really like everything clicks together, then I think it becomes much more in focus.

Melanie Esther:  [01:09:58] It sounds like that your next project is going to be like that, right? With the title of the song and your goals?

Tom:  [01:10:04] Gonna be a popstar.

Melanie Esther:  [01:10:05] Yeah.

Tom:  [01:10:06] K3, but just one guy.

Melanie Esther:  [01:10:11] B1.

Tom:  [01:10:13] Yeah.

Vincent:  [01:10:15] Alright, then always our final question. Is the alien question. And that goes as follows. Imagine an alien lands on Earth, and this alien knows nothing about Earth, our culture, who we are as humans. And you get to introduce this alien to us as humanity. And you do that by taking this alien to a concert. How do you explain to this alien what a concert is?

Tom:  [01:10:45] Oh, I have to talk to the alien? I can't just show a concert?

Vincent:  [01:10:52] Yeah. So, imagine you're saying, like, "hey, we're going to a concert. I'm going to show you a concert." And the alien is like, "what's a concert?"

Tom:  [01:10:59] Mhm. Uh. That's a good question. I guess I would say it's a sort of, it's sound in a sequence and it's done, uh - it's really hard - performed by people. But then I also have to explain what a performance is. I would just show them, you know, 'Stop Making Sense’?

Vincent:  [01:11:32] Yes.

Tom:  [01:11:33] Could I just show them 'Stop Making Sense?' It's like I think the perfect way to explain a concert.

Vincent:  [01:11:36] Why?

Tom:  [01:11:37 ] It shows everything about a concert, I think. Stop Making Sense. It starts with the most barest music possible and builds. And you see everything behind the scenes, how it works, and you see sort of lighting and how lighting works as well. And you see music acoustic and then electric and how, and that builds until it's like a whole big thing and you see them dance and costumes. And I would just show Stop Making Sense.

Vincent:  [01:12:01] Stop Making Sense, for the people who don't know, it is the famous concert film from the 80s by the Talking Heads and David Byrne.

Tom:  [01:12:07] It's amazing. It's amazing. No, it's the best thing ever.

Vincent:  [01:12:11] And why do we humans like to go to concerts? Why do we like that so much?

Tom:  [01:12:17] It's a human thing. It just feels good. I think it doesn't even, sometimes it doesn't make sense. You pay money, you hear things that you could just listen to at home. It's sweaty. It smells, generally. You have to put the jacket in the... That's a Dutch thing, I didn't have that in Australia, like lockers and coat checks and everything. And then you have to wait for it afterwards. It doesn't make sense, but it feels good. So, it's, I cannot explain why it feels good to the alien. 

Melanie Esther:  [01:12:43] It's the feeling.

Tom:  [01:12:44] Yeah.

Vincent:  [01:12:45] It's a feeling.

Melanie Esther:  [01:12:45] Alright.

Vincent:  [01:12:46] Bumble B. Boy, thank you very much!

Melanie Esther:  [01:12:48] Thank you.

Tom:  [01:12:49] Of course, my pleasure. Yes! Yeah!

Outro:  [01:12:55]

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